Overweight issue - debate

[DSM]

I've been thinking about this a bit recently, with the 'fat shaming' (which, as any other kind of 'shaming', is vile) and I have a couple of Facebook friends who have posted articles where basically they are justifying being overweight by using the 'my body my choice' line.

I'm conflicted.

First, I absolutely am a feminist and absolutely agree that no person should have to conform to any societal ideal, on anything.

However, I don't think it is 'okay' to be obese, and I don't think it should necessarily be a feminist issue. Both men and women who are obese are unhealthy. Fit people are not obese. I realise, it is not always a choice and there are a lot of people for whom obesity is a medical issue (my sister is one of them) but I certainly wouldn't expect those people to encourage others to be obese, or not tackle their obesity, by affiliating it alongside other feminist principles.

Thoughts?

Yep, that's the bottom line, Stop.

I'm not sure what you don't like feminism doing. Encouraging obesity? Tolerating it? Acknowledging that women can be both obese and happy? Unlike smoking, I don't know anyone who has deliberately become/remained obese, let alone done so as a feminist act.

I've had to bookmark a post on the first page, and reply before reading on, because this thread is making me way more angry than the same topic does in Chat or S&B. Not sure why

DSM, I really want you to get your head around what obese means in the British culture, today. In our society, the word describes carrying any amount of visible body fat, but you're using it as if it always described carrying so much excess flesh that it impedes normal movement, skin hygiene and organ function. Seriously, we do not have a lot of that in the UK. We do have a lot of fat that isn't particularly unhealthy.

Also, this: "Both men and women who are obese are unhealthy." Untrue. Men and women carrying so much excess (see above) are unhealthy, but obesity is a far greater range than that. While I'm here, I'm obese BECAUSE I'm unhealthy, not the other way round. And my body shape doesn't make me unhealthy, or my doctor would've said summat, wouldn't he? What he does say is, "Hmm, you're still just in the obese range, but don't worry about that."

I'm really very interested in the conversation about women's body shape issues. Teasing the 'beauty' strand away from the 'health' one is a necessary prerequisite for this ... but we won't get anywhere if we insist on discussing it with all the false prejudices/presumptions firmly in place.

I'm hoping people have already tackled this, though the last few posts haven't made me too optimistic yet. I just needed to get this posted instead of going to bed with my anger.

Now the bastards want to bring it offline.

adiposeactivist.wordpress.com/2013/10/10/fatshamingweek/

Unlike most smokers, binge drinkers, STD carriers and (particularly) extreem sports enthusiasts, obese people suffer the misfortune to wear the results of their foibles. The former can readily find respite in the crowd, an option unavailable to the obese. Prejudice and negative '-isms' are, and always will be, the bastion of the intellectually lazy. Hence, their targets are visible (obese, ginger people) and readily bracketed 'types'/minorities (asylum seekers, the unemployed). Fact is, there are lots of (potentially) unhealthy people wandering about, most of them metaphorically hiding behind the obese and hoping a new slimming drug isn't invented that'll expose THEM to the hate mob. From that perspective, this thread might equally have been about anyone making unhealthy lifestyle choices, AKA "risk takers" and whether they have a right to take those risks. Implicit in the idea that "bad habits" are indicative of weakness is the inference that a devotion to health and longevity is a strength. Is it? Longevity is a bleak prospect if you have to fill the time with (not too) rigorous exercise and fruit munching. Bad habits/risks might (more positively) be described as "enjoying the moment" - welcome respites from an otherwise dreary existence. So long as those activities don't negatively affect others they should be encouraged or, at least, ignored. I don't think obese people are asking anyone to embrace ill health just, quite rightly, to be free from prejudice that might - but shouldn't - be equally applied elsewhere. Prejudice and hate directed at anyone should concern even those not currently victimised by it because after the obese, smokers, promiscuous, etc have been "cleansed" you'll be nearer the top of the list. This is beyond a feminist issue. We have a right to take risks, whether they be paragliding or tucking in to a 2nd bucket of KFC, and be free of critcism for any unfortunate results that affect nobody beyond ourselves.

That was fantastic, Slang. Very life-affirming!

Thanks, GV. I didn't know there was a Feminist forum till I clicked the link. Thought about fleeing before any 'Dworkins' found a male interloper but decided to grow a(nother) pair and add my deux centimes.

Some great posts on this thread.

Firstly there seems to be a fallacy about what "obesity" means. This:. When your organs are struggling to cope with the weight. When you struggle with short walks. is just not true.

My BMI is just teetering between 29 and 30, which makes me "obese" some days. I'm 5'9" and a size 16. I don't "look obese". Yesterday was a fairly average day - I cycled 5 miles, walked 3.5 - towing/pushing over 20 kg of DC. I could have and frequently do, much more. I swim 80 lengths no problem.

Now why is my BMI still high? The main reason is that I'm 3 months postpartum and exclusively BFing - my body is physiologically programmed to hang on to that weight. The scales have not budged an inch since the week after my DD was born. FWIW I cycled at least 12 miles a day throughout my pregnancy.

Some women are lucky enough to lose the "baby weight" immediately & effortlessly. And not all women are obese due to pregnancy. But it's a big factor in many womens' weight gain that men never encounter.

Interesting to hear all this. I've just seen another thread from an OP who is a size 18 and can cycle 20 miles no problem.

Personally I am a size 10 but 30 lengths is an achievement and cycling more than 8 miles brings me to the verge of collapse. Clearly the judgy types with their head-tilty concerns about others' health should get off the case of large people and start hassling me and my kind. But they don't, eh?

Hear hear SlangKing

So if a person isn't obese but downs a 2 litre bottle of coca-cola a day and lives on takeaways (but it doesn't show, so they aren't obese) is that ok? You can't tell outwardly so you can't judge their health - in terms of judging people by appearance they pass. By contrast an obese person may be actively trying to tackle the issue; eating well, exercising as much as they can but still be obese. Society are free to judge them because that is how they look.

My issue is judging people, in particular women, on appearance and to a strict standard of what is acceptable. Yes, obesity is unhealthy, and that is something the obese person has to deal with. However, there are plenty of thin people who are unhealthy but they are not judged because they conform to a standard of appearance set by society.

I can assure you that constantly picking at people for their weight does not make them suddenly change their lifestyle, it just makes them unhappy. If it were that easy to change they would probably have done it already. Frankly there is no danger of ANYONE thinking obese = healthy, but why shouldn't people try to accept who they are and what they look like rather than hating themselves because it is OK for people to call them names, because y'know, it's unhealthy.

I honestly think that thinking like this is just a thinly veiled disguise for fat-shaming masquerading under 'concern'.

Slangking - good post!

I think my issue has stemmed from a very specific incident - a feminism group that I am part of, has recently began campaigning against fat shaming. I am ALL for this, absolutely.

Then, a friend of mine who is (in my definition, I realise this is up for debate) obese*, and a few other group members who I don't know, have started their own sub-group, and there are some members who are not comfortable with this. It's extreme, I think that is the issue. I found myself agreeing with the non-supporters, hence starting this thread, as I wanted to engage in discussion outwith that group.

*I refer to obese as I detailed above. Not a size 16 or 18! I play sport and there are women I play with who are incredibly fit, but not slim or necessarily toned. These women, to whom I refer, are morbidly overweight.

As an aside - BMI is bullshit.

Slangking I agree, good post.

DSM I do see where you are coming from but I agree with Slangking that our risks should be our own.

Perhaps I take this issue a little personally since I am a size 18-20 (I was larger) however, I eat more healthily than most people. I swim twice a week 50 lengths each time and do aqua aerobics 1 - 2 times a week. I also walk everywhere. There are a lot of much slimmer people around who do far less than I do but they are free to judge me purely on my appearance and they can do so under the guise of being worried for my health. Surely that is my worry to bear. As it happens it does worry me as I have children so I am doing something but I don't need to be told by others that I am inferior to them because of how I look.

I agree ev1lEdna - no one should be made to feel inferior because of their appearance, not at all. And I don't think 18-20 is obese, by the way.

The sub group isn't fat acceptance - that's the basis of the original group. It's the really overweight girls (I can only speak for my one friend, who is a size 36, but fairly representative of the women in the group, obviously there are some larger, some smaller) who are claiming their right to be the size they are, and appropriating it to being a feminism issue.

I think there is a big difference between patriarchal ideals towards perfect size and shape, and societal pressures to be a certain size - which probably the majority of women are not - and certainly I do feel this is a feminist issue. Women 'should' be... is always a feminist issue.

However, I do not think taking something which is a fundamentally unhealthy way to be, and demanding acceptance of it because you are a woman and therefore it is a feminist issue, is right. And I am struggling to find it acceptable.

Like we said before, I wouldn't be comfortable with a 'pro-anorexia', 'pro-smoking', 'pro-heroin' campaign, particularly if it was being appropriated to a movement which I am passionate about. I feel the same about obesity.

But they do have the right to be the size they are. It's no-one else's business. It's a feminist issue because women are often told they "should" look or be a certain way, and we have the right to reject this and indeed to do the exact opposite if we wish.

In principle, I agree with you.

A person has the right to be obese, to be a junkie, to be an alcoholic.

It doesn't mean I agree with it being accepted as a human rights issue.

I'm not suggesting I want to lock up all the obese people until they lose weight! I am merely saying, that people can choose to be however they want, it is of no consequence to me. I do not care.

I do care, when they are asking me to support them.

Up until recently, my friend has been really, really active in trying to combat her obesity. She has been looking into gastric bands, along with other things. She has said countless times that she will die if she gets bigger - doctors have told her this. Now, she seems to be campaigning for the 'right' to be the size you choose. It seems contrary.

If it was merely a 'please do not attack me whilst I am this size - I know it is unhealthy and I am doing something about it, and do not need to be made to feel inferior because of it' then I would support that 100%. I do.

But I am not comfortable with 'I am obese and proud'. It is not something to be proud of, and I am struggling with it.

I agree entirely with everything you have said stopdoingthat, and if you are talking about overweight people, then I am 100% in agreement.

But I am talking about people who are hugely obese.

It's not really about whether or not it is attractive, whether or not men are affected etc. It's about the fact that people who are maintaining a lifestyle that is morbidly unhealthy, are using feminism as a barrier for social acceptance.

Imagine it was heroin addicts. If a group of heroin addicts said 'My body my choice - I am a woman and how dare patriarchal society tell me not to inject drugs', would you support that?

Why should people have to "do something about it" in order to be socially accepted? Everyone has things in their life which aren't necessarily the healthiest choices, but if others can't see them, they remain socially "acceptable".

On a side note, Vinegar, you and all of us who are tall have BMI higher than it "looks" like we should have because BMI has height squared, and it should use something like height 2.5 or 3. People are 3-dimensional and we would expect mass to scale with height3, not ^2. BMI overestimates the 'obesity' of tall people and underestimates that of shorter people, which is one main reason it's crap.

I think the question "are men doing it?" is a relevant one. Risky behaviours include some sports, alcohol consumption, liberal sexual behaviour, and some eating habits, and some jobs (police, military, rescue services and more). These are risky and potentially "bad for us" and it could be argued that to minimise those risks, for our own good, we should not do those things.

I think where feminism can really play an important role is in pointing out, and fighting against, double standards in which men do those things with little social penalty and in many cases social rewards, but women are humiliated, shamed, and endure great social costs for doing them. It's a familiar story if you think about sex, obviously. This double standard is certainly at play in the culture around the "obesity epidemic" and obesity generally. On that basis I support fat acceptance, and I support sexual liberation and empowerment for women, despite the (hopefully small, if done correctly) risks of STIs. Some risks are acceptable given the reward: living life more the way we want to.

While I don't think we should celebrate obesity in and of itself, we do in some sense celebrate promiscuity, risky levels of alcohol consumption, participation in risky sports and various other risks -- there is much bravado out there on these things, variously socially celebrated in various sub-cultures. Maybe we shouldn't celebrate these things either (especially the binge drinking!). But we shouldn't have them penalized harshly for women and slightly or not at all for men, which is where we are at now, I think - especially for fatness.