Advice on how to deal with misogyny in an all-male work environment

[sasperella42]

I swear a fair bit in this. Sorry to anyone who doesn't like swearing

I've recently started a new job. In Bangkok, of all places. It's the first time in my life that I've not worked in an all-female environment and I'm finding some things awkward to deal with - I'd really appreciate any advice you may have.

Basically, I now work in a Boy's Club. I'm sick of hearing them talk about women ONLY in the context of their availability, appearance, or fuckability. I'm sick of hearing them talk about their schemes for getting women into bed, how they want to get their dicks sucked, how the women that don't want to do these things are sluts, irrelevant, or ugly. I'm sick of hearing about how I need to be their 'mind canary' (Oh, you have to tell us if we say something wrong) as if their shitty comments are somehow MY responsibility. I'm sick of the constant barrage of negativity directed at women from them - we're liars, we're cheats, we overreact and can't be trusted...

There are 6 of them in total and the fact is that they intimidate me. I'm new in my job, unsure of my ability, in a new city (and country) and desperate to fit in. To make it worse, I'm generally a really quiet and agreeable person, but I've now had enough and want to (learn how to?!) speak out. Can you give me any advice? Do you face this stuff as well? What do you do - grin and bare it? Challenge them?

I've 9 months left on my contract so I don't want to ostracise myself, I just want to be more vocal about what is and what isn't appropriate. It's getting to the point where I dread going to work because I know my sense of self-worth will be rock bottom by the time I come home, just having had to listen to their constant, low-level misogyny all day. For some reason, the racist jokes are easier to deal with because at least there's some level of understanding that racism = NOT OK. With the stuff about women (talking about how they'd f*ck one of our 15 year old students, listening to one guy talk about how he's coercing his gf into sexual acts she's explicitly told him she isn't comfortable with just because he thinks they're his right, having the first comment about female students always be about their appearance - she's fit, she's fat etc) is totally normalised. The expat culture here is basically all about men getting exactly what they want from women, and women existing only to please men, and these guys have internalised it.

Apologies for the rant and if this is not an appropriate way or place to ask this question, but it's really starting to get to me and I need to take some action. Speak up or put up, right? I'd really appreciate any advice on how to deal with it or how I can work at being a better feminist and argue them down. Where can I practice talking about feminism?!?!?!

I suppose there's a good side to all this: it's REALLY making me want to be a better and more engaged feminist!

Thanks for your help.

normal men don't talk and behave like this. You have been transported to arsehole central, I'm afraid. I've worked in all-male environments over three decades and it was never like this.

clearly none of them get any sex unless they pay, and never will.

I wouldn't waste your time trying logic. Just tell them that they are really making it clear what losers they are and it is very, very boring.

Is this more about working in Bankok that working in an all male environment do you think? I spent many years working in an all male environment, yes there was "banter" which could sometimes be a bit near the knuckle, but I generally found it amusing and (most of) the men knew who wouldn't appreciate it and when to stop.

I always found them very professional towards me. They admired my ability and treated me with respect.

How is your boss?

Im so sorry you have to deal with this. I encourage you to be a feminist, helping make things better for the women that come after you. But, its what you are comfortable with.

That being said, you have two ways you can deal with it. 1) are there company policies? Human Resources? make a complaint. and tell them that if they say something they wouldn't say to their mom or sister, then its not appropriate for the office. Do any of them have photos on their desk of mom or a sister? copy it, blow it up and put it on as a mask when the talk starts.Tape them a few times on your phone and threaten to call their mom, or girlfriend.

or 2) I went though the same thing many moons ago, and used humor. one liners to talk about how small their dick is, how they must talk all the time to overcompensate for what they dont have. How they must have to do all those unusual things because they cant get it up normally. How you heard that so and so is not allowed near any farm animals anymore. Youd be amazed how they didnt think it was so fun to provoke me when i just threw it back at them and they became the butt of the joke. But if you do this, its always good to tape a few session to show that you were not the instigator.

The Boys club is still alive and well in every country. Its unfortunate, but I believe that everything happens for a reason. For me, dealing with it made me stronger and want to be a mentor to other women. Try to find a way to bring something out of it that matters.

good luck! if ya need to vent or a friend [email protected] and i can add you to Facebook. All my girlfriends can provide you with excellent one liners and help get you through this. Old farts like us have been through it too! hugs...jen

Tennisjen, respectfully, with the amount of mra trolling that goes on in this board I'd ask mnhq to remove your email address from your post and pm the op with it.

Op I don't know what to tell you. You've confirmed every prejudice I ever had about a certain type of ex-pat who choses a certain kind of country .

I think you need to think really hard about whether you want to see your contract out. And whether you then want it renewed. This will inform your choices. Is it a bit, multi-national company? Enough to have proper hr procedures? Even if they are at head office level? What's the management structure like?

Your choices are basically a) do what you can to make life bearable while you finish the contract. Record everything in a diary. Then when your contract is nearly up, go to town, invoke every procedure and grievance and disciplinary process you can.

Or b) do all that but don't wait for your contract to be up. Record evidence and do it in a month. But honestly you can only do that if you have RL support, because your life will be a misery. And tbh I would expect your contract will be terminated.

Neither is a comfortable choice. I'm sorry. If you were in the uk or on a permanent contract my advice would be different, but you have no protection in your current situation. I'm really sorry. It sounds fucking shit.

Every time one says this say ,"someone, somewhere is saying that about your sister"

You can change sister to 'mother' or 'daughter'.

You can change it to "one day someone will say that about your daughter" - useful if they have small children.

If you are in a foul mood you can add "and it will be true"

I find men who act like this have no concept that their female relatives are women too - they put them in a different category.

I don't really like the phrase "imagine that is your sister/mother/daughter you are talking about" as it encourages such misogynistic men to continue to view a woman's worth in terms of her relationship to him.

You could try "that's a person you are talking about, not a piece of meat" "what a charming attitude" "do you think of me in such a crass way?" "How would you like it if some bloke spoke about you like that?" (and don't let them wriggle out of the last one by saying "I wouldn't mind if a woman did"- remind them that they are not women and the point is they have no idea if the recipient of their comments likes it or hates it just as they would dislike such comments from another man). Or said in a lighthearted way "I can't believe you actually think and speak like that- I thought such attitudes went out with the dinosaurs" and refer to them as your dinosaur club.

I went though the same thing many moons ago, and used humor. one liners to talk about how small their dick is, how they must talk all the time to overcompensate for what they dont have. How they must have to do all those unusual things because they cant get it up normally.

How is responding to their insulting, misogynistic comments with insulting, emasculating comments in return going to help? Poking men like these with a shitty stick continually is not going to force them to gain respect for women, or to change their mindsets or actions.

Poking them with a shitty stick might make them unhappy enough to shut up, though. Why shouldn't they feel hurt and insulted when they've been hurting and insulting the OP? I'm very much in favour of mocking sexist men and telling them off, frequently followed up with comments along the lines of those who can't take it shouldn't dish it out.

Yes, it's hard work, if you're not naturally a stroppy gobshite. But it's effective, because if they are really nasty rather than stupid, it will push them into crossing a line that will get them disciplined or even arrested.

I don't really like the phrase "imagine that is your sister/mother/daughter you are talking about" as it encourages such misogynistic men to continue to view a woman's worth in terms of her relationship to him.

That's not the phrase I used. I did not ask anyone to imagine anything.

How about "Why would you talk like that about a fellow human being?"

I wouldn't be responding in person to this idiots at all. I would be making a strongly-worded complaint to the boss and copying in HR.

'I would be making a strongly-worded complaint to the boss and copying in HR.'

I.e. you'd like a man to sort it out for you.....

If this was my company, I would want to know.

I'm sure your bosses would be thrilled to know that not only do they have a bunch of vile, misogynistic wankers working for them, they must be doing incredibly well if staff have time to spend discussing sexual material in the office.

It is crass, obnoxious and unacceptable.

Please report to HR with details, any respectable company would take your concerns seriously. I encourage my staff to come and speak to me if they feel intimidated/offended or just plain old pissed off by the behaviour of other team-members and I hope you have the facility to do the same.

I think going through the proper channels and not lowering yourself to their level would be best. The problem will be if the culture over there is so misogynistic that management/HR are also of that mindset - either male and think like that, or female and don't question males thinking like that. Hopefully that wouldn't be the case though, and HR making an example of a few of them might give them something to reflect on.

JoTheHot why assume the boss or HR are male?

Ie you'd like a man to sort it out for you

Nope - a suggestion to follow "normal procedure"

The boss and/or the HR person may be a woman, of course.

If OP was a disabled person suffering similarly, would you post "ie ask an able bodied person to sort it out for you"

I doubt it.

Its difficult. I think I'd want to point out to them that their behaviour is entirely unprofessional and it wouldn't be tolerated any more in most UK workplaces. If they're ever planning to repatriate they're going to get a culture shock.

'I would be making a strongly-worded complaint to the boss and copying in HR.'

I.e. you'd like a man to sort it out for you.....

Er...what?