AIBU? And I could do with some support

[kickassangel]

So, I grew up in a family where my father was not to be upset. What he wanted went. Apparently this was because he worked, so we all had to be sympathetic and he never had to do the dishes, or vacuum etc.

I hated it, he gets very upset very easily, is pretty OCD about routine and people not touching his things etc. I think of my childhood as unhappy and me being controlled a lot.

Now I have been staying with my sister and family. Today we were getting ready for a big party tomorrow for my parents' 50th wedding anniversary. My sister, 2 nieces and dd and I have worked flat out all day. Her dh is in the garage doing work on a car. This is his hobby on one of his many classic cars, not an essential repair.

All day we have provided cups of tea and meals. Then my younger niece came in and said she's told her dad she was busy right now (she was) and if he wanted tea immediately he could make it himself. My sister sighed and said that she wished her daughter wouldn't upset him like that.

This is just my childhood all over again, isn't it? The father being the great I AM and no one else is allowed to upset him or contradict him. When not working he does what he wants, and everyone else does all the typical female servitude..

If I dared express such opinions I would be told that I am awkward. AIBU to think like this. In my head I'm not, but everyone around me would tell me otherwise.

Thanks for that. Some of those things I have tried, but with varying success. If it's at my sisters I can get away with it, but I find it harder with the nieces around as i don't want them to see so much conflict. At my parents house I would be reprimanded for being selfish or stubborn.

I like the idea of the I'm ok thing, but not sure my parents are open minded enough to cope if I start talking like that.

One time they were horrified that my BFF had given her kids their dad's surname as she isn't married to her dp. They genuinely didn't believe me that this could be legal. I tried telling them the law but they wouldn't have it. In their world, illegitimate children can't possibly have the dads name. They really are stuck in their own life that they can't see beyond it.

But I will definitely read the book. It may not make much practical Impact, but if I can cope better emotionally it would make trips home easier.

It really is about coping emotionally :) That's a great example to set the nieces, too. I hope you do get something new from it - please update if you remember!

Op are you prepared for the blame and possible fall out you'll get for you dn in the future? Every decision and strength she displays will be cast against you.

Oh I know that.

I have already been told that she has inherited the awkward gene from me! And there are many comments about how she behaves just like I do and sounds like me. And ATM I take the path of least resistance by fitting in. Imagine what will happen if I make a stand.

But however much I may help her, it's her parents that she wants acceptance and validation from, not me. There's nothing I can do about that.

It is so truly bizarre that I get blamed for this, as we've never lived anywhere near each other. If you add up all the time we've spent together, it may be as much as a year in total. I will definitely try to find some ways of dealing with this, but won't be back in the UK until next summer, so you will have to wait a while for an update.

Home again. Going to order the book later and think things over.

When I'm not there I don't believe myself; surely it can't be as bad as it feels when I am there

kickass - read the thread. You've said nothing about your mum in all of this? Yes she was/is a SAHM but where does she stand with you? Is she 'there-there dear' or is she too quietly supportive? Do you know? I ask as she will have strong feelings about all of her dds and she is a player in this.

And, it's never too late to make things plain. When my dad went to live in Spain (aged 60) me and my sisters had quite a difficult session with him to inform him who we saw things happen over the years, and how his conduct affected us. He understood some of it.

The speaking plainly, and poss line-drawing, will lift a big element of your frustrations. You won't have any control over how the pieces may fall, but to maintain the integrity of the relationship plain speaking assists in the TA analysis above.

Oh my mum is totally the one who tells me to behave and do as I'm told. Just like my sister tells her younger dd. in both cases we're the younger daughter, and the older dd seems to be the golden child in comparison. It's not quite that black and white but that is the basic dynamic. I feel quite like the family scapegoat.

I think it's telling that my mum and sister both tend to refer to me and our dds as one homogenous group, as if I'm one of the kids.

OK - so one example.

My mum had cooked lunch, then the phone rang. So I dished up the food. Dad was right there. I asked him if he wanted a sausage. He said yes. So I put a sausage on his plate, he carried it outside, put the plate down, then realized it was only 1 sausage, and he wanted 2. Stood there looking concerned.

I said oops sorry. By then I was sitting down, giving dd veg etc. Mum also sitting down, Dad still standing.

Trying to be helpful, I said, 'there's spare sausages in the pan, you can get your self one"

mum said, "you're a harsh woman. won't you get it for him?"

Now, am I harsh, as I was doing something else. Or should I have got up and got my Dad a sausage, even though he was standing there with nothing else to do?

This is completely typical of how the family runs.

kickass: I would have been tempted to lead him to his chair, sit him down, tie a bib round his neck, cut up his food and feed him, as he is clearly as helpless as a toddler.

Your poor DNieces, the "golden child" too as well as the one who's more like you!

All kinds of things come out in formal speeches, find them uncomfortable listening sometimes.

In your shoes I wouldn't be able to help myself, if I really cared about DNs and Dsis was unlikely to listen or change things, would probably end up interfering, like saying things to the DNs about my upbringing and DF, how hard it was, equality, and share books that might make them think a bit. And let them know was there to talk. But this could obviously go wrong and upset the family!

Maybe less of a risk for you as you're not living near them (?) so could interfere subtly, from a distance!

Yeah. I try some subtle interference. It was just this last trip made me see how much dsis and family was replicating my childhood.

The stuff I give examples of is so petty but it happens all the time, so it gets so wearing. Then I feel so so bad as my parents are very supportive on the big stuff, but around them there is a definite way I should behave.

It's not petty, Kickass. It's your conditioning - and your sister's - the conditioning your parents were responsible for, and with which you are now lumbered. Identifying such issues, and then working to free yourself of them, is a massive ask; in some ways it's like doing a total gut-and-rebuild of your personality! I've often said I don't blame those who choose not to "see" or to question. Trouble is, once you have seen, it's impossible to re-embed yourself in the dysfunction. I rather suspect that those of us who end up having to work through it, are the ones who were 'misfits' because we knew it was wrong early on.

Some things have happened around my 'golden' sister, who is quite narcissistic. She replicated the family dynamic, with a bullying husband and a house full of violent rows. Another thing replicated was the scapegoating of the eldest. I'm the eldest, too, so when her eldest was suffering at being picked on again, I decided to explain it to him - in simple terms; he was about ten, I think. I said that families often repeat patterns like this, usually without noticing. I said it just seems the way life is to them, but it isn't fair. I told him I was blamed for everything, just like him, but I was not a bad kid and neither was he. It was just our bad luck that our family expects too much of the eldest, and dumps too much blame on that child when things go wrong. My sister was listening. She corroborated what I'd said, without expanding.

In a more recent development, she's acknowledged the truth about what a bastard our dad was (she denied it for decades,) and has even altered her style of reminiscence so far as to call him "Bad Granddad" when talking to the kids It's little and late for them - they have pronounced relationship problems and shaky self-worth - but it's better than we got.

It's worth ploughing through it, imo. There are ways of holding and respecting the truth within yourself - and of sharing it - while avoiding confrontations. A lot of the sharing seems to happen like magic, once you've clarified your own position to yourself. It's not magic; it's the cumulative effect of small, almost unconscious, alterations in your manner of communication.

One obvious example from your 'sausage' story would be your mother's quite horrible remark. You could just say "I'm not harsh." You could follow that up with "I'm serving the children," and/or "Dad, will you just get your sausage, please, while everyone's busy?" Just a little thing, but lots of little things make a difference :)

Now, am I harsh, as I was doing something else. Or should I have got up and got my Dad a sausage, even though he was standing there with nothing else to do?

No, you are not harsh. I am astonished by that story.

I feel so so bad as my parents are very supportive on the big stuff, but around them there is a definite way I should behave.

I wasn't sure whether to elaborate on this yet as I'm afraid of shocking you, but am emboldened by Bewildered's highly appropriate reaction. You are not indentured to your parents and sister. You are not required to 'pay' for their support by accepting belittlement or insults.

Does it feel as if you are?

i wrote a long response last night that got lost when I posted.

Anyway - for whatever reason, I do feel like I owe them something.

I agree with the principle of respecting your parents, but that has got twisted to having to let them behave any way they want and never being allowed to resist. My Dad's behaviour can be really appalling. e.g. one time there was a car booster seat in the front hall. He didn't know if it was from his car or my sister's. He ended up standing in the hallway, shaking with rage/frustration and yelling "IS THIS OUR CAR SEAT?" I had already answered him 3 times so I yelled back "NO".

My Dad had wanted my mum to answer so he ignored/didn't hear me (Mum was in another room, I was standing next tohim). A few days later Mum had words with me about it, telling me I should never shout at my father, he can't help it cos he gets upset (well so do I, and guess where I learnt the behaviour from) and can't help it.

I told her that I thought letting him behave like that, even after he had been given a quiet, polite response to his initial question (which wasn't asked politely) was wrong and upsetting. As I left the room my mum said 'grow up' just loud enough to hear, but quiet enough to ignore.

I almost went back and told her how I had an unhappy childhood and it was no accident that I lived 4,000 miles away.

If he behaves like that, it's bullying imo. Also, why is it OK to leave me so upset I'm in my room crying, but he shouts then she rushes around to calm him down? She just values his feelings and happiness more than mine, doesn't she.

It has got worse now they live just the two of them - probably because she has to live with any fall out.

That us how I often deal with stuff, but it can backfire or they start doing back to me. It is openly accepted that dad is difficult, but we still have to do what he wants most the time. Compromise is few and far between

That us how I often deal with stuff, but it can backfire or they start doing back to me. It is openly accepted that dad is difficult, but we still have to do what he wants most the time. Compromise is few and far between

Yes, your father is a bully and your mother values his feelings & happiness more than yours :(

Thinking about how they treat you like a child, and your mother's "grow up" comment, it looks as if they believe the role of an adult woman is to pander to the male. This is archaic, and never was the reality for millions of happy couples throughout time. The structures of their lives may have differed in history, but love has always involved respect. Your family's ethos presupposes male disrespect for women, even - or especially - those that love them. Women 'grow up' to love them regardless, rather like trained dogs.

Using another person's love for you as a tool for dominance is abuse.

I can quite see that, as their 'little girl', they may provide you with material support, but it seems to come at a high emotional price. My wish for you is to stop paying that price, and let the chips fall where they may. I know how impossible it can feel - but you can walk away from the shouting and the sneering. You can! You can even tell 'em you're not listening to any more of their dysfunctional crap and will leave if it doesn't stop. Then you can leave.

I have to say that, despite being in therapy at the time, I couldn't have done it without support from Stately Homes. I did it, though, and it worked in some respects. Most importantly, it worked for me. Because I found it hard to respect a 'me' who would silently take abuse, as I had through childhood. I owed my younger self more than that.

garlic - thank you so much for all your support.

I am thinking carefully about my next trip o the UK, probably in June next year.
The thing is, when we only see each other for short periods it is OK - I seem to get visitor status, so visits of a couple of days are fine, enjoyable even. It's when I'm staying there without dh that it all comes to this.

If I tell you that staying with MIL is a million times worse, you'll get an idea of how going home to see the family is. But I don't want to cut off contact. dd is an only child, has some special needs, and enjoys being the fussed over grandchild. She also adores her cousins, and they her. I really think that she would suffer to lose contact with the extended family.

I also think that I can tolerate this if I can manage it a little more. So I am looking at renting a holiday place in June, somewhere in the middles of the country where I can see friends as well as family, and have some short bursts of contact over a two or three week period. I also think that if they come to visit me it will be better, as I will be hosting.

Have just ordered the book I'm OK.
I think I'll tell dh that paying for a holiday cottage will cost less than the therapy I'd need afterwards if I stay with family.

Once again, thank you for talking me through this. I was really beginning to internalize the message that I should just put up and shut up it's me that causes the friction!

Wow, you must really look forward to your visits here I take your points about benefits to DD, their practical support and so on, though. It'd be nice if there was only one way to deal with family dysfunction, but unfortunately there's no rule book.

I'll tell dh that paying for a holiday cottage will cost less than the therapy I'd need afterwards if I stay with family

Sounds like a very healthy approach! You're OK :)

I can't add anything to the great advice here but the scenarios you described, especially with the car seat, made me feel ever so cross for you, and sad on your behalf that you are treated in this way. How terribly frustrated you must become with all this.
You sound ever so reasonable and sensible, despite everything, I really am impressed. It is hard enough to recognise things from the inside, never mind breaking away from them, that really is something to be proud of, if you don't live this way, you've done something great!

Believe me, I am 44 and still very much a work in progress.

I wouldn't automatically say your Mum values your Dad's feelings above yours, but she lives with him and has been conditioned to placate him above all things.

This is such a difficult situation, I've been empathising with aspects of it, and having difficulties with family dynamics.

My parents also behave much better when my DH is around; I've never really thought it was to do with "having my male owner present" but more to do with his presence stopping regression to childhood family dynamics. However, I'll have to consider that and see if perhaps the "male keeper" thing is more true than I'd like to think.

The cottage idea is brilliant though. Last xmas I hired a cottage and invited my parents instead of being in anyones actual home, and I really found it worked for me (and DH). Parents seemed to think it was weird, but seemed to enjoy it in the end.

Do you hire a car when you visit? One of my problems is when I visit my parents I'm normally "trapped" as they live rurally away from a railway station. It's much better when we hire a car.

Anyway, I've nothing that helpful or constructive to say, but YANBU, and hang in there-you're doing all the right things and it's completely reasonable to be frustrated and upset.