Rambling thoughts on why we get more excited by men supporting feminist theory than women

[AnnieLobeseder]

So I've spent the last couple of days fighting the feminist good fight in the comments on an article on the BBC Facebook page. It's been an interesting chat with some entertaining MRA trolls, but I like to think I held my own.

Despite my comments getting a fair number of "likes", I didn't get much in the way of backup, and the support, surprisingly, came more from men than women.

I was very pleased to get this support from the men though, and have been wondering why I was so pleased by it. I know some people think that even in feminism, people will pay more attention when men speak feminist truth simply because they are conditioned by the patriarchy to give more weight to the opinions of men. Which may well be true.

However, I think that personally, I accept that we're up against difficult odds and deeply ingrained public opinions. I also, though RadFems may disagree with me, believe that we'll never get anywhere fighting against men; we have to fight with them. We need to convince them of why we're right and of the benefits to them as well as the more obvious benefits to women.

I expect women to be allies, and am disappointed when they're not. But I don't expect men to be allies, and am pleasantly surprised when they are. So it's not so much that I am more "impressed" by a male feminist than a female one, but I am more excited to discover that a man is an ally, because it gives me hope that perhaps it's not such a pipe dream that men and women can actually work together to make society more fair to everyone.

Am I being hopelessly naive or misguided?

No, you are not naive or misguided. Most men have wives, daughters, sisters, mothers. Why on earth would they want them to be second-class citizens? I do think this support from men actually disappoints/angers some of the more radical elements within feminism.

Annie I think there may be overlapping reasons. Maybe it feels like a victory that men are coming on-side and a feeling of hope (as you said) and maybe (sorry) because we are socialised to value male approval. I'd love to hear if there may be others.

Cisco I don't buy that at all. If what you said was true there would be no need for feminism. Patriarchy would not exist if men valued their wives, daughters, mothers and sisters as much as their sons, fathers, brothers and male strangers. I would not be remotely disappointed if what you said was true. I would rejoice. It sounds like you are saying that men love and respect women but some women are looking for any old excuse to complain. Are you?

Most men love and respect women (hence the 'not my Nigel' phrase that someone on her quoted from a recent rad fem meeting they attended). I believe that to be true. That is why, at least in the UK, women have the same rights as men.

A very few - very few - women will find that this goes against their core political beliefs, and those are the ones I am referring to.

Cisco, I'm afraid I agree with Flora here. While most men might feel like they love and respect women, they are still completely blind to their position of privilege, or in denial that it exists. Hence otherwise perfectly nice guys coming out with corkers like "women's rights have gone too far".

Most men are not active campaigns for women's rights, they don't challenge sexism from their friends or families, watch porn and are quite happy to let their wives deal with cleaning the house and running around after the kids even though they both work full time.

Even if it's from a position of ignorance or passivity, sadly, most men are not allies. If they were, feminism's job would be done.

Thanks Nigel. I'm so relieved to hear that women have the same rights as men in the UK. Seriously?

And I'm afraid that in reality, women do not have equal rights in the UK.

Also, it's not support from men that angers RadFems, it's these men then sitting back and expecting gratitude for just not being sexist nobbers.

I am fairly sure that my daughter and son have/will have equal rights in the UK to the following;

education, healthcare, voting, buying property, marriage, divorce, civil partnership, equal pay, recourse to the law, to speak freely, to choose a religion, to choose political allegiance, insurance, to travel - just off the top of my head. And I think that this stuff is enshrined in UK law. Am I wrong?

What also occurred to me, reading the OP, was that more women than men did not support her stance. Is that possibly because women have these rights, and feel free to adopt their own, independent thoughts?

I think its because we crave male approval more than female. I know I do. It might be a throwback to when I was a kid and DM would say "wait till DF gets home" and we had to have everything tidy for him, then give him some peace when he got home. DF was far scarier than DM and harder to gain approval from. Which made me crave it more.

Cisco - obviously legally we have those rights, but there is a difference between having a legal choice and a real equally loaded choice. Of course in the UK we are incredibly fortunate compared with other countries, where women are still struggling for those basic legal rights but when/if they get them they will still have meet a lot of mental barriers from society.

I think it's also to do with the "Isn't he good, he knows how to look after his own children/cook a meal/put socks in the washing machine" mentality. Men generally only have to behave like normal adult human beings to get praise. Ditto a passing adherence to feminism.....

I think the imbalance on the BBC Facebook site is to do with the fact that sites like that tend to be a very hostile environment for women who support feminism. Well done for fighting the good fight there Annie. Most feminists I know get fed up with the MRAs after a while and take their discussions to places where they can actually have a discussion without sexist abuse. Hence the women who are left there are self-selecting and more likely to be those who don't support feminism, or don't dare put their heads above the parapet to support you. Men are more likely to support you there because it's easier for them than women, in effect.

Cisco - yes you have the right to speak freely as a woman. But you don't have the right to speak freely without being called an ugly harridan for doing so, and that does tend to have a silencing effect on a lot of women, oddly enough.

CiscoKid wrote -

"I am fairly sure that my daughter and son have/will have equal rights in the UK to the following;
education, healthcare, voting, buying property, marriage, divorce, civil partnership, equal pay, recourse to the law, to speak freely, to choose a religion, to choose political allegiance, insurance, to travel - just off the top of my head. And I think that this stuff is enshrined in UK law. Am I wrong?"

What medical procedure could be denied by law to your son in the UK? I can't think of any. Do men have to obtain permission from two doctors before being legally allowed to have e.g. a vasectomy? I don't think there are any restrictions on a man in the UK having his bodily integrity respected in law at all times, whereas laws in the UK associated with abortion place restrictions on a woman's rights.

I used to comment on a lot of political issues on various sites.
When commenting on women's issues my female sounding nicknames were slaughtered, my neutral or male sounding ones get listened to (and disagreed with, of course, sometimes quite nastily) but there was a definite shift in tone when I was identified as a woman.

Sometimes when assumptions were made I didn't correct. Just carried on making my points like an normal person rather than take reams of abuse regarding my genitals. Cowardly maybe?

I think it's sort of like this, for me. Women can speak feminist truth and talk about what it is like to be a women and why some things are not equal, and this is exciting and liberating and brilliant. But it can start to feel like we are just talking amongst ourselves, women to women, and the real people who can initiate change, the people who are doing the oppressing, ie men, aren't listening or hearing us at all and it can feel hopeless like men are just ignoring it as "silly women speak" and disregarding it. It can feel really demoralising that if you chose to speak out your words carry no weight with (some) men.

So, when men speak out about feminism it can feel like a breakthrough - Hurrah! A man is listening! (he must have been listening because he does not have the experience of being a woman himself) And now he is saying stuff, maybe other men will listen to him and not dismiss feminism as silly women's nonsense!

Quite sad really. And if you think about it it doesn't really change anything anyway because the kind of men who are sympathetic enough to feminism to speak out about women's experience probably aren't the kind of men doing the bulk of the oppressing anyway so they aren't the group who really need to be hearing and listening to this stuff. And those men will probably dismiss men who write or speak about feminism anyway.

Depressing. But the more men who speak about feminism in small ways maybe it will infiltrate ans men will see it ad relevant to them, and ultimately that is what we need to happen.

Vesuvia - I am not a lawyer, or a medical doctor. I don't know what the law is re abortion, or why it would be how you describe. I can only compare like with like. I would not expect an appendectomy, or brain surgery, or organ transplant, or fixing a broken bone, or any common-to-both-sexes procedure to be denied to someone because of their gender.

I could find certain areas of the law that statistically favour one gender. Ditto education - we might find that one gender outperforms the other with the current UK setup. Or we might find that one gender has a longer life expectancy. My point was that the legal framework should show no favour, and for all its imperfections, I think that by and large it is true. After that has been established, attitudes have to change.

As for men speaking out about feminism, I don't know how much is wanted or expected. It is a very fine line between supporting and taking over the show. I think some men fear being seen to be sticking their oar in. How do they speak out about the experience of being a woman without upsetting some feminists? I think men are much more likely to speak out about equality than feminism.

CiscoKid wrote - "It is a very fine line between supporting and taking over the show."

Really? Why would a very fine line apply to men and feminism? I think there are a number of levels of support than men could show for feminism and feminists, well short of taking over the show.

I think your comment is more a stock excuse made by many men, along the lines of they'd "like to support feminism but if only that fine line to taking over feminism wasn't so easy to cross".

I don't hear many men saying that they'd love to support Manchester United but can't/don't because it's a very fine line between supporting and running the team.

Because in any political movement, you have to feel as welcome as the next person.

I will give an example. A while back on here, someone started a thread asking why feminism seemed to alienate many women. Various people posted their thoughts and opinions. I did too. I immediately got the stock "Ooh, look, we're all doing feminism wrong. Luckily there's a man here to tell us."

I did what everyone else did - I answered the OP with my thoughts and observations. It was not welcome, because there are parts of feminism that I don't agree with - just like some of the women in the discussion. My maleness is a barrier, whether you or I like it or not.

If I was to become an active political feminist figure, which branch should I espouse - Marxist, libertarian, radical, sex-positive, second-wave, third-wave? I guarantee I would piss someone off, and they would have all the ammunition they needed to shout me down.

I think, Cisco, that as a man, the same as a white person supporting black rights or a straight person supporting gay rights, you have to accept that your personal opinion, apart from one of general support, is of little relevance and you cannot expect to disagree with any political movement in which you hold rights and privilege over the people within that group, even if you happen to be right. If they are wrong, hopefully they will figure it out but no way in hell are they ever going to accept it coming from you.

So personally, I expect men to back up women when they speak out about inequalities, to call their friends and family out when they make sexist jokes or worse, express fully sexist opinions. To not question women being in "men's" jobs or places.

Because you're right. I disagree with lots of feminists, but as a woman, I can openly do so. As a man, you really can't. There's little you can do but accept that this is one place your privilege doesn't extend.

Ciscokid- you don't have to be a medic or a lawyer to know that women are not allowed complete autonomy over their bodies the way men are.

And if men feel hesitant about speaking out on feminist issues, why don't they lead feminist lives? Why don't they challenge other men on gender issues?

Agreed, Annie. The movement for full equality for women in any society has my full support. I can say so day to day. I can tell my daughter till I am blue in the face that being a woman should not prevent her trying to do anything she wants. I can tell blokes - or women - at work or in the pub or at the bus stop that they are being arseholes, if their behaviour warrants it. But as for getting involved in a grass-roots political movement, I think that that is where my involvement ends. I think this is women's fight. I cannot get up on a soap-box, or lead a movement.

Curlew - you ask 'why don't they challenge other men on gender issues?' Well, isn't that what the men in the OP were doing? Exactly that. Which is what lead to the OP's surprise.

One other thing occurs to me, re the OP's question - why get more excited about men's support? Perhaps it's because men have nothing directly to gain from advancing your cause, and yet they do it anyway, in increasing numbers. No requesting of medals or cookies, just saying what they think, because they think it's the right thing to do. Perhaps we don't always expect this from our fellow human beings.

Nicely put on all counts, Cisco.