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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

See all MNHQ comments on this thread

The invisible men project

999 replies

ArmyOfPenguins · 06/05/2013 22:45

I think it's important that the buyers' choices in prostitution are highlighted and shared. This project was linked to on FB. Thoughts? I think it's a great idea.

the-invisible-men.tumblr.com/

OP posts:
scallopsrgreat · 22/08/2013 14:45

"Why don?t you carefully read the reports before you spout?" Why don't you learn to format properly and make your posts readable? Why don't you engage with the posters instead of just writing long barely coherent posts cut and paste from reports that aren't actually relevant to the thread? Why don't you stop being rude and patronising to those posters who are trying to engage with you but are finding it increasingly difficult because of the style of your posting and your avoidance of the real issues at play? Why don't you stop demanding we read 213 page reports just so we can pick out some graph on page 120 which illustrates point xyz of whatever you are arguing? Why don't you just give us your opinion in your own words?

I can't believe you think it is reasonable to demand that people read 213 page documents. Actually yes I can, you think punters aren't misogynistic. You don't think it is unreasonable that men feel entitled to have access to a woman's body for 'companionship and intimacy'. It's not so great a leap that you expect women to do as you say.

scallopsrgreat · 22/08/2013 14:47

And all kudos to WhentheRed and Flora. You've been amazingly patient and far more diligent than he deserves.

FloraFox · 22/08/2013 14:56

wino "mysogenistic" - haha! I actually thought you were using a different word that I had never heard before and googled it! More fool me for giving you that credit. Please don't confuse "abuse" with "contempt", this is Mumsnet and I'm free to tell you to fuck off with your tone policing.

It is a very common derailing tactic for pro-pimp lobbyists to come into any discussion and demand that posters wade through reports, surveys or even books in order to continue with the discussion. They generally can't summarise generally what the report, surveys or book says, why it is important to the discussion or how it overcomes some fundamental problems in trying to represent a population that is generally hidden. When I have done this in the past, I have generally found the report or whatever does not contribute much to the discussion but derails the discussion into a debate about the report. This thread is about the choices punters make and the language they use to describe the women they buy. Since that discussion was largely winding down, I have continued a broader discussion with prostitution about you. You are even derailing that derail by insisting that I read hundreds of pages of reports without presenting your case as to how they overcome some fairly fundamental problems. I raised these issues with you after your first post and you have still not addressed them. You have not established yourself here as a poster who only contributes high quality information so I'm not going to waste time going through PubMed or Google based on your assertion that something is important or brings anything useful to this discussion.

For example, the Keele thesis was based on data obtained using Survey Monkey, it was written by a PhD candidate who no longer works in the field and who has not written or commented further about the subject other than BTL comments in a New Statesman article where she said:

"I certainly don't claim my sample to be representative of the population, the sex-working population, or even escorts advertising on the internet."

So I conclude that this report is not authoritative. I believe it is being misused by pro-pimps to further their agenda by trying to suggest that it is "evidence" for their "happy hooker" bullshit. Punters love it feeds their cognitive dissonance when someone has written Something Important that says "Carry On Chaps".

I believe that prostitution must be approached from a political analysis. Surveys or reports can produce some interesting facts and I have read many about prostitution. I have found that even those which tend to support my political viewpoint have the same fundamental difficulties in producing anything authoritative. If you want to bring reports and surveys into an issue which is fundamentally political, you will need to explain how these problems have been addressed or overcome if you are demanding that others read them, particularly when asked. Otherwise you're just wasting everyone's time (which is sometimes the point).

You can't answer my issues about the reports you have previously cited by citing another one as an example and not addressing the issues for that one. Do you see how that is circular? Do you see how that does not further the discussion?

I know what purposive sampling is. Can you indicate how it was handled in the reports you cite? Since the Keele report used Survey Monkey, I'm not going to take your word for it that the other reports achieved (or even attempted to achieve) good representation of women in prostitution and women who are no longer in prostitution. Many of these types of studies are actually very limited in the population they survey (e.g. only women advertising on the internet, only women who entered prostitution after the age of 18, only women who speak English, only women who respond to a survey request) and some are overly broad (e.g. including male and female prostitutes in the same survey, including people from different countries). Statistics and surveys are also massively susceptible to manipulation by the author in the selection of questions or even the way the questions are asked. If the author has a political bias or represents or is being paid by someone who has a political bias (in either way), this affects the credibility of the study.

All you have said about abuse, addiction, mental health and poverty is "what is the motivation for telling untruths".

So you can see that I think the battle of the stats on any issue, but particularly this one, is ultimately fruitless or fruit-lite. It is particularly problematic on the issue of prostitution and I wonder if there is a connection in the sort of shared mentality of the people who write p net reports and those who love to gather up facts and figures and bore their friends or random strangers down the pub with them.

On the political point you say your position is based on agency and harm reduction. What do you think about structure?

WhentheRed · 22/08/2013 15:22

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Message withdrawn at poster's request.

FloraFox · 22/08/2013 15:28

Thanks capt, sabrina and scallops. I know this is all a massive derail, sorry for prolonging it. The thread had gone a bit quiet. This is all about the punters, their choices and mindset. I do think (as I think capt said upthread) that when pro-punters come on here to try to defend punters, they usually end up showing the same sort of mindset. They can't help themselves.

inwinoweritas · 22/08/2013 15:29

CaptChaos
I have made several posts on the issue raised by the OP (see my post of Tue 20-Aug-13 16:49:22, last paras of post Thu 22-Aug-13 09:57:18) and made clear my distaste for the cited extracts. However I also point out that the extracts are not representative and that representative sampling reveals a different picture-and that the OP may have an agenda ?which is to paint all those who report on Punternet as misogynists, while some undoubtedly display appalling attitudes that is not the case for most.

As far as my other posts go this was prompted by a discussion of the issue of whether a prostitute could choose prostitution choice-raised by a discussion of an extract of an article by Catherine McKinnon. I pointed out that there was another interesting article on that topic by Barbara Sullivan (my post Tue 20-Aug-13 15:19:48) Flora then leaped in (her post Tue 20-Aug-13 15:26:45)? Please present evidence that:

  1. these statements from sex workers result from perfect free agency and are not influenced by abuse, addiction, mental health issues or poverty.
  1. The sex workers in question and their views are representative of sex workers as a group.

I did this in my posts (Tue 20-Aug-13 15:58:04, Tue 20-Aug-13 16:49:22) This produced a response from Flora-who replied in terms we have become depressingly familiar-accusing me of being (? Tue 20-Aug-13 17:01:16 ?pimp lobby sock puppet? post 20-Aug-13 19:35:43- ?pimp lobby person? and ?doesn't understand statistics or surveys.?

When I produce evidence she refuses to read it, questions the credentials of the authors and demands to know who funded the surveys (no doubt to see if she can use ad hominem arguments against the work I cite ) and then resorts to saying she wont read anything because it is ?not representative?.

It?s a little like arguing about evolution with a creationist-don?t show me the evidence as I ?know? what the truth is-or a child with their fingers in their ears saying nah nah nah.

FloraFox · 22/08/2013 15:57

I do love to leap.

FloraFox · 22/08/2013 16:02

when thank you for your endurance in finding and reading this report.

wino I await your response with baited breath. Since when has afforded you the courtesy of tracking down and reading your "evidence", I hope you will explain to her why you have wasted her time with yet another piece of pimp-lobby propaganda.

SinisterSal · 22/08/2013 16:02

nah nah fucking nah. Indeed.

SabrinaMulhollandJjones · 22/08/2013 16:02

Seems inwino is the 'creationist' here, giving us flawed, unrepresentative and possibly downright dishonest studies to make his point.

Inwino - all you've done is expressed distaste for those Invisible Men - but then just dismissed them as 'unrepresentative.' What, just a few bad apples? I don't think so - and a glance at PN tells me so.

inwinoweritas · 22/08/2013 17:45

Inthered
Well congratulations on at least getting to the survey-perhaps you can explain how ?The report to the Prostitution Law Review committee? by three respected and experienced academics is a ?pro-prostitution lobby group? or as flora says ?pimp lobby propaganda??

What about the other reports I cite from Australia-Flora has failed in her transparent attempt at ad hominem dismissal so now has to resort to mud-slinging. I suspect you dismiss the reports (and refuse to read them flora) as the results to not conform with your political prejudices. Well you are entitled to your views-what you are not entitled to is to distort the facts.

To deal with inthereds points (and you can breath now Flora)

  1. I already explained why in sampling and gaining access and trust from the stigmatized and hidden population you may use prostitutes or ex prostitutes as interviewers.

  2. I also explained what purposive sampling is in my post earler today

  3. (see 1 above)

  4. It is acknowledged since some fractions will be under-interviewed as they don?t understand the questionnaires as they were written in English. Some of the other work I cite from Australia did use questionnaires in other languages. As I explained purposive sampling is not the same as representative sampling-although it can come pretty close.(the example form Leeds by Church I cited earlier did)

  5. So? That is what comes out of the demographics of indoor workers-I do wish you would read the report properly

  6. Yes-this is true of sampling street prostitutes in lots of places, minority groups often have higher representation on the street (surveys in Canada, the USA etc show this too)

  7. I explained why the NZPC was involved-that was to gain access to a stigmatized population. You cannot simply dismiss the report on the basis that they were involved in accessing a hidden population. You will have to show that they prejudiced the answers to the questionnaires or inserted false data to rubbish the survey.

  8. Indeed-that means over 80% entered as adults-although it is frequently claimed by abolitionists that the majority entered prostitution as children. Age of entry depends on the sector-street prostitutes-many who have run away from home and are engaged in ?survival sex? tend to have an earlier age of entry than those indoors

  9. You are misreading table 6.4-3% (weighted average) had in the last 12 months been raped by a client-the figure is higher for street workers As I said before table 6.5 says who the issues were reported to. I suggest you fully read the text as well.

On the issue of Punternet and moderation-it is important to know if the posts cited in the invisible man project are pre-or post-moderation-which is why it would be helpful to have report number and date-are they still on-line? Without proper referencing it is hard to know.

Oh and Sabrina-a glance-is not sufficient-you need to see a representative sample.

Also you are quite wrong about ?There is zero evidence that decriminalisation improves the lives of prostitutes.? You should carefully read the Australian reports I cited earlier, and also ?The report of the prostitution Law review committee on the operation of the prostitution reform act 2003? which was published in 2008 by the NZ Ministry of Justice (that well known pimp lobby group) (Google it-url too long to paste)

SabrinaMulhollandJjones · 22/08/2013 17:54

Oh and Sabrina-a glance-is not sufficient-you need to see a representative sample.

Oh, sorry, did I not explain? The fact that PN exists at all and that the men on there are prepared to 1. Use prostitutes and 2. write up ratings is inherently misogynistic.

A glance at the opening page of PN is all you need. Men on PN are not representative of all men - but all are representative of misogyny. fwiw though - I have read a fair few. As many as I could take before I despaired at all punters' attitudes to women.

CaptChaos · 22/08/2013 18:01

wino you mistook me. I don't much care what you think. You have shown yourself to be a bit of a cyber bully with your attempts at derailing, and I don't really care what they think about anything. You have WhentheRed and FloraFox trying valiantly to show you where you're wrong and why, and you just keep further obfuscating and deflecting.

My post was rhetorical.

Yours are rude, peremptory and full of spurious 'facts'. Until you have something sensible to contribute, only the most patient and generous of posters will engage with you.

SabrinaMulhollandJjones · 22/08/2013 18:11

Did you like the dig at me about 'a representative sample' Capt? A bit on the cheeky side considering the study he wants us all to give credence to!

WhentheRed · 22/08/2013 18:14

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Message withdrawn at poster's request.

WhentheRed · 22/08/2013 18:15

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WhentheRed · 22/08/2013 18:27

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Message withdrawn at poster's request.

FloraFox · 22/08/2013 19:18

inwino asking you to justify why I (or anyone else) should read, believe and give weight to an author's writing is not an ad hominem attack. It is the height of entitlement to demand that someone reads hundreds of pages of reports without justifying it. Now you are calling the authors of the NZ report "respected and experienced academics"? Are they? I don't know one way or the other. I asked you about their credentials and you suggested I google it. The onus is on you to establish the credibility and reliability of your evidence, not on me or anyone else. Since you haven't set out their credentials, I'm going to assume you don't know what they are. There are lots of people who someone manage to be employed as academics who are neither credible, reliable, respected or even experienced. This point is often overlooked by those who bandy about research or studies and leads me to disbelieve your claim to have authored academic papers.

The fact that it was submitted to the Prostitution Law Committee of New Zealand is not particularly impressive. You may have decided to devote hours of time and attention to justifying men's rights to access women's bodies for cash and may not be aware that across all areas of law and policies, papers are presented to parliamentary committees that are highly biased and unreliable. It's called "lobbying".

"I explained why the NZPC was involved-that was to gain access to a stigmatized population. You cannot simply dismiss the report on the basis that they were involved in accessing a hidden population. You will have to show that they prejudiced the answers to the questionnaires or inserted false data to rubbish the survey."

No, it doesn't work that way. If you are trying to bring in evidence, the onus is on you to show it is reliable and credible. The participation of a biased advocacy group in the selection of the survey candidates and the interviews immediately.

Your dismissal of my refusal to go down your rabbit hole because I have a closed mind is simply deflection from the fact that you can't stand up your evidence. I have already said that I have similar reservations about abolitionist surveys. I find all surveys about prostitution inherently problematic. I do not dismiss them all, but I would need to have a better pitch on why something written by someone somewhere is worthwhile.

As I said, I think this is a matter of political analysis and I am interested in your response to my question above about structure.

FloraFox · 22/08/2013 19:20

*immediately raises questions as to the credibility and reliability of the report. If you choose not to address them, I feel comfortable in dismissing the report.

inwinoweritas · 22/08/2013 19:21

Whenthered
Firstly can I say I appreciate the tenor of (most of) your post-free from insults and showing some wish to engage.

You are misunderstanding what I said, perhaps I did not make myself clear. It is true that street prostitutes suffer more rapes than those working indoors, from the data that I have seen 50% ever having been raped would be at the very high end -the actual number from different surveys vary (see my earlier post) The numbers raped while working indoors is far less-a large number of surveys agree on this-and many indoor workers have never experienced rape. Now let me make it abundantly clear-rape is a heinous crime.

I am not dismissing street prostitutes (or trying to make them invisible) by saying that statistics from this group are not ?representative?-. What annoys me is that those with an abolitionist agenda will take the data from street prostitutes and, without qualification, say those statistics apply to ?prostitutes? i.e. all of them. So we get statements like

a) More than half of women in prostitution in the UK have been raped and/or seriously assaulted and at least 75% have been physically assaulted at the hands of pimps and punters (Demand change www.demandchange.org.uk/index.php/facts)

b) 74% of women in prostitution identify poverty, the need to pay household expenses and support their children, as primary motivators for being drawn into prostitution

c)75% of UK prostitutes entered prostitution under the age of 18

d) in some areas over 90% are addicted to illegal drugs

e) 68% of women in prostitution meet the criteria for Post Traumatic Stress Disorder

f) 92% stated that they would leave prostitution immediately if they were able to

When you examine the sources of these claims you find that the data are taken from the worst examples campaigners can find for street prostitutes but then generalized to all prostitutes-when it is well known that these statistics derived from street prostitutes are not representative of those figures for those working indoors (who represent the vast majority of prostitutes). So the campaigners-by not adding the qualification ?some surveys of street prostitutes? say xyz-but claim the figures are representative of all prostitutes. This has been pointed out many times so one begins to think that the misrepresentation of data is deliberate to paint prostitutes as victims, to deny them agency-which suits the prohibitionist agenda.

I assume you mean that Teela Sanders book is not available free on-line. You are probably right that men do not cross over between sectors-remember that street prostitutes tend to sell individual services those indoors sell by time. So clients who just want to ?get their rocks off? and enjoy the illicit danger of street prostitutes might go there. Those wanting a more GFE (girl Friend experience) will go indoors.
You are right that legalized prostitution probably may not lead to street prostitutes working indoors (and experience shows this ) It that used to be the case-when asked about experience of working in different sectors a small fraction of those indoors did report experience of street work. But now the majority of street workers are addicted to drugs (so brothels won?t employ them) and they lead chaotic lives which are incompatible with maintaining the shifts patterns they would have to work.

I don?t think that ?the pro-prostitution movement's part to advocate men's access to street prostitutes then to disclaim responsibility for the catastrophic harm caused to such women on the basis that such women are not "representative". Their experience is not statistically representative of all prostitutes was the point-that is not to dismiss their experience which seems to be pretty miserable.

FloraFox · 22/08/2013 19:27

inwino - statistics aside, what level of women being raped in the course of their "work" is statistically acceptable to you?

ps don't forget my question about structure.

TheDoctrineOfPositivityYes · 22/08/2013 19:32

Glad inwino is using paragraphs, it helps.

inwinoweritas · 22/08/2013 19:40

Flora
Oh dear Flora-you really need to take your fingers out of your ears and start engaging rather than just parroting the same old same old. You ask for evidence-and then when provided you refuse to read it-you first try the tactic of ad hominem demolition-you ask for authors and who paid-I provide that-you then want their credential-I provide links to their websites so you can look-you can?t be bothered-if I provided their credentials Professors with a wide experience of public health, epidemiology and the like you would dismiss that as ?cut and paste? and say oh well anyone can obtain that position it does not mean anything. Go to the websites-look at their experience and published work-but I know you won?t because your mind is closed..

You try the tactic of ?not representative?-and I patiently explain survey techniques-you rubbish those

You next display breath-taking ignorance ?The fact that it was submitted to the Prostitution Law Committee of New Zealand is not particularly impressive. You may have decided to devote hours of time and attention to justifying men's rights to access women's bodies for cash and may not be aware that across all areas of law and policies, papers are presented to parliamentary committees that are highly biased and unreliable. It's called "lobbying".

No. When the prostitution reform act was passed in NZ it was a requirement of parliament to set up a review process to examine the effects of the legislation. This is that report-it is not lobbying as you claim-by claiming that you are displaying once again your ignorance, your closed mind and your willingness to engage.

I must say Flora asking for evidence then ignoring it really shows you are a creationist in your mind-set.

inwinoweritas · 22/08/2013 19:41

Flora-no level of rape is acceptable -read my lips

inwinoweritas · 22/08/2013 19:43

I mean unwillingness to engage

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