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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

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The invisible men project

999 replies

ArmyOfPenguins · 06/05/2013 22:45

I think it's important that the buyers' choices in prostitution are highlighted and shared. This project was linked to on FB. Thoughts? I think it's a great idea.

the-invisible-men.tumblr.com/

OP posts:
scallopsrgreat · 20/08/2013 15:34

I don't see how the scandanavian model closes down the possibility for autonomy. On the contrary it gives prostituted women more autonomy. The autonomy to leave, should they wish to, for example.

inwinoweritas · 20/08/2013 15:58

Well if those comments were addressed to me flora-here is a start-it comes from a reply to Rhoda Grants consultation on criminalizing the purchase of sex in Scotland-which she has now removed from her website-response 170

para 12. You state ?The majority (emphasis added) of those who are involved in prostitution are unwilling participants? how do you know? You give no source for this information. One of the most important things when making claims about a population based on survey data is to make sure the sampled population is reflects the status of the population as a whole. If this is not done, the results are not reliable.
What is well established is that prostitution is a very sectored ?industry? the minority (generally reckoned to be 10% in the UK-estimates in other jurisdictions vary (2-25%)) work on the streets-the majority work indoors, in saunas , brothels, flats or as out-call escorts working for an agency and also independents who advertise either in newspapers or on the internet. The experience of those working in each of the sectors is very different. What you have done is generalize from street workers (the 10%) to the entire ?industry?( the other 90%); this is totally illegitimate and even then you get it wrong.
In a very large survey of those prostitutes who contacted clients via the internet (so the opposite end of the spectrum from Street workers) Suzanne Jenkins (Jenkins S 2009 PhD thesis University of Keele? Beyond gender:an examination of exploitation in sex work? summary here ebookbrowse.com/beyond-gender-an-examination-of-exploitation-in-sex-work-pdf-d121595189 ) found that (p121) ?In terms of participants longer term plans, survey question 18 addresses this topic directly, by asking: ?How much longer do you plan to do escort work for?‟ The options offered range from less than 3 months to ?I have no plans to stop escort work‟. For women, ?I have no plans to stop escort work‟ was joint first choice of answer along with ?one-five more years (both were indicated equally by 35.3% (n=101). In contrast, only 3.2% (n=9) indicated that they planned to stop in less than three months.?
That does not sound to me like ?The majority of those who are involved in prostitution are unwilling participants? and also the majority did not feel exploited ? 77% felt clients treated them with respect? (p164) and the majority had never experienced violence.
One quote from a sex worker is particularly pertinent
?I experience psychological violence every time I read about how I am supposedly "exploited" in my work. Women with whom I have had this conversation clearly are focused on the media's stereotype of this work, and have no idea that MOST of this work is carried out indoors under similar situations as what I do. I get very frustrated that so-called "feminists" work incessantly to silence those of us who do speak out about the general enjoyment (or even mere economic independence) we experience from our work.? (F475-Jade) p181
I attach the whole thesis which is worth a read. See also the responses from prostitutes to the previous consultation of Trish Godman
?I have known hundreds of female sex workers and through them many hundreds more. They enjoy their work, or if they do not, find it no more troubling ,demeaning or soul-destroying than many ?normal? office factory or other job positions. I have known thousands of clients and have found them to be entirely average examples of the male population?not simmering misogynists or would-be rapists.? rhodagrant.org.uk/consultation2012/14.pdf
?I would also like to make clear how utterly humiliating the piece of work in question (that is the consultation) is to all women, be they sex workers or not, and to all men, whether sex buyers or otherwise. It shows in no uncertain terms that all women (because all prostitutes have at some point been ordinary women) are dumb creatures who cannot (and should not) be in control of their own lives as they are sure to muck it up. Men on the other hand are portrayed as ruthless barbarians , driven by their sexual needs only? rhodagrant.org.uk/consultation2012/98.pdf
While some may be unwilling participants you cannot claim as you have that the majority are. And before you claim these views (those in the Jenkins thesis and those quoted above) represent only a minority of those in prostitution I suggest you acquaint yourself more fully with the (rather large) literature on prostitution. Work by Bleinda Brooks-Gordon (Brooks-Gordon, B. (2005) 'Clients and Commercial Sex: Reflections on Paying the Price: A Consultation Paper on Prostitution', Criminal Law Review: 425-443) and Teela Sanders (Sanders, T (2008) Paying for Pleasure: Men who Buy Sex, Willan, Cullompton) are worth reading-they show that for many of those in prostitution it is a rather mundane job.

Bunnylion · 20/08/2013 16:07

inwinoweritas have you read this thread?

It's about questioning the buyers choices, not the prostitutes. And many many times its been repeated and agree in here that no one can speak for an individual on why she has become a prostitute - the thread is about discussing the buyers choices.

inwinoweritas · 20/08/2013 16:49

Bunnylion: I have indeed read the thread-and I was responding to Flora (post today 15:26:45 being the latest) a who ad nauseum wants evidence that

  1. these statements from sex workers result from perfect free agency and are not influenced by abuse, addiction, mental health issues or poverty.
  1. The sex workers in question and their views are representative of sex workers as a group.

As far as buyers choices are concerned the original post providing excerpts from punternet on buyers choices were (a) rather selective-and designed to paint men as misogynist abusers (b) failed to provide the elementary details of date and post number so their veracity can be checked.
In fact Punternet and its posts have been the subject ot at least rtwo independent academic studies where representative samples were selected. So see for instance Teela Sanders " Paying for pleasure: Men Who Buy Sex" (www.amazon.co.uk/Paying-Pleasure-Men-Who-Buy/dp/1843923211) who analysed reviews and interviewed men who posted on punternet as well as Earle, Sarah and Sharp, Keith (2008). Intimacy, pleasure and the men who pay for sex. In: Letherby,
Gayle; Williams, Kate; Birch, Philip and Cain, Maureen eds. Sex as Crime? Willan.(both works by respected academics) who take pains to select REPRESENTATIVE samples of posts and find that far from misogynists most posters are looking for some sort of intimacy. Similar work in the USA (Christine Milrod & Martin A. Monto (2012): The Hobbyist and the Girlfriend Experience: Behaviors and Preferences of Male Customers of Internet Sexual Service Providers,
Deviant Behavior, 33:10, 792-810 dx.doi.org/10.1080/01639625.2012.707502 or Christine Milrod and Ronald Weitzer The Intimacy Prism : Emotion Management among the Clients of Escorts Men and Masculinities 2012 15: 447at:
DOI: 10.1177/1097184X12452148 again illustrate what buyers think they are buying

Bunnylion · 20/08/2013 16:57

Ah I see now. Thank you.

REPRESENTATIVE samples of posts [] find that far from misogynists most posters are looking for some sort of intimacy

If only you were here on page one we wouldn't have had to have this lengthy discussion. I'll get onto Amazon for that further reading you've suggested. Thanks again.

WhentheRed · 20/08/2013 16:59

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

FloraFox · 20/08/2013 17:01

As usual pimp lobby sock puppet doesn't understand statistics or surveys.

inwinoweritas · 20/08/2013 18:14

I assume Flora that anyone who produces evidence you don't like is a "pimp lobby sock puppet "-and sorry being well versed in a professional capacity in statistics and surveys what particular part do you object to? The truth perhaps?

Reading back over your posts you are incredibly abusive to anyone who does not tout the line that you do.

Blistory · 20/08/2013 18:19

Nah, she's just dismissive of anyone who tries to justify using women as a wank sock.

Statistics don't show the grim reality of life. They sanitise and distance us from what really goes on and each side uses the same stats to justify their stance.

When really any person with a shred of intelligence or humanity would recognise the role that self interest plays and the extent to which sex workers need to distance themselves from their day to day reality.

FloraFox · 20/08/2013 19:35

Blistory you got it.

new pimp lobby person, what you have produced is not evidence. I've been through this before, see here:

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/a1671153-OAP-home-allows-residents-to-book-sex-workers?msgid=37035965

It's been my experience that pimp lobby sock puppets have not actually read the surveys they've quoted and have no understanding of their meaning or what makes them poor evidence. They are usually just regurgitating any old crap they've read about on a pimp or punter website.

You'll see in the linked thread why I don't believe surveys can ever be good evidence when it comes to prostitution.

Now, back to the men. What is the girl friend experience?

libertarianj · 20/08/2013 23:50

Here's a more scientific and less biased analysis of punternet.

jonmillward.com/blog/attraction-dating/dirty-words-analysis-of-call-girl-reviews/

FloraFox · 21/08/2013 00:09

In what way is it scientific?

WhentheRed · 21/08/2013 00:20

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Message withdrawn at poster's request.

libertarianj · 21/08/2013 00:24

it's objective and uses facts and figures, looking at trends, instead of just cherry picking a few bad punter reviews. It also analyses a healthy sample size of over 5000 reviews.

oh and you asked about the girlfriend experience, i'll just be lazy and link wikipedia:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Girlfriend_experience

libertarianj · 21/08/2013 00:25

I could also remember to check the link button

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Girlfriend_experience

WhentheRed · 21/08/2013 00:50

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

WhentheRed · 21/08/2013 01:02

This reply has been deleted

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SabrinaMulhollandJjones · 21/08/2013 01:03

Looking at the Invisible Men again tonight, there's one that says "I hope she's not trafficked." So the fact that she might be trafficked occurs to this punter as a real possibility. This doesn't seem to overly concern him as he's writing a field report on PN rather than reporting it.

GoshAnneGorilla · 21/08/2013 01:09

Libertarianj - why are you so desperate to try to convince us that prostitution is OK?

Do you go around telling black people that racism isn't harmful to society too?

inwinoweritas · 21/08/2013 02:01

So Floral you have been through this before? Well thanks for pointing out the thread- I see that you refuse to read evidence (your posts Sun Sun 03-Feb-13 04:42:22) where you rubbish and refuse to read the thesis of Suzanne Jenkins it because its a PhD thesis-and that the sample-which is clearly of those who conduct their business via the internet is not representative of all prostitutes-and you conclude (post Mon 04-Feb-13 03:11:06)
? The thing is, statistically, it's not possible to devise a meaningful representative study on harm or consent by asking prostitutes for a number of reasons.

  • Those who are in forced situations will not be able to participate.
  • Those who have left would be unlikely to participate or too difficult to find.
  • The responses are largely subjective and therefore unverifiable.
  • Dilbert always has something useful to add
  • To paraphrase a famous prostitute: they would say that, wouldn't they.
While it is difficult to construct a truly representative sample(that is a sample where the numbers surveyed in each sector represent the numbers in the actual population as you are surveying a hidden population (those on the street being more accessible and countable) than those working indoors what can be done is to use purposive sampling-that is to survey large numbers from each of the sectors-there are a number of studies where this has been done. So for instance Prostitution I Danmark (( Kofeld et at 2011 Postitution I Danmark www.sfi.dk/publications-4844.aspx?Action=1&NewsId=3032&PID=10056) is a survey (N=290) of prostitutes (113 escorts, 140 brothel 37 street prostitutes and shows that many prostitutes choose to enter prostitution and that very few have pimps or are forced (the survey is in Danish if you want an English translation PM me).

If you want surveys in English you can look at a very large survey of 770 sexworkers in New Zealand (working on the streets, in brothels or as private workers) showed that in the past year over 90% had not experienced violence or rape (again violence and rape were more common in streetworkers)( Abel G et al 2007 The impact of the Prostitution Reform act on the health and safety Practices of Sex workers :Report to the Prostitution law review committee table 6.4 page 120)

In a relatively large study in Queensland Australia of 247 sex workers (102 in legal brothels, 103 independent escorts and 42 illegal street workers) it was found that found that 85% of sexworkers overall had never been raped by a client, of those that had been raped most were street workers where 50% had been raped (Seib C 2007 Health, well-being and sexual violence among Female sexworkers: a comparative study PHd thesis Queensland University of Technologyeprints.qut.edu.au/16398/1/Charlotte_Seib_Thesis.pdf )(p102 table 4.4) Appendix 4 of this thesis (p 216 ) present a summary table of eight other studies that examined prevalence of rape in sexworkers, again showing most indoor workers had never experienced rape while the frequency of rape in street workers was higher. Similarly for assault (?bashing?), again 85% overall had never been bashed by a client (p105 table 4.6) street workers had the highest prevalence of bashing where 50% reported ever having been bashed by a client (p106 table 4.7). And before you rubbish this as a pHD thesis much of the work has been presented in the peer reviewed literature ( see for instance Charlotte Seib , Michael P. Dunne , Jane Fischer & Jackob M. Najman (2012): Predicting the Job Satisfaction of Female Sex Workers in Queensland, Australia, International Journal of Sexual Health, 24:2, 99-111dx.doi.org/10.1080/19317611.2011.632073,) also see ?Selling sex in Queensland 2003? (available here www.pla.qld.gov.au/reportsPublications/sellingSex.htm)

Maybe not enough reading-the try Donovan, B., Harcourt, C., Egger, S., Schneider, K., O?Connor, J., Marshall, L., Chen, M.Y., & Fairley, C.K. (2010). The Sex Industry in Western Australia: a Report to the Western Australian Government. Sydney: National Centre in HIV Epidemiology and Clinical Research, University of New South Wales.(available at nothing-about-us-without-us.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/05/WA-Sex-Report-20101.pdf) or try Donovan, B., Harcourt, C., Egger, S., Watchirs Smith, L., Schneider, K., Kaldor, J.M., Chen, M.Y., Fairley, C.K.,Tabrizi, S., (2012). The Sex Industry in New South Wales: a Report to the NSW Ministry of Health. Sydney: Kirby Institute, University of New South Wales.( www.kirby.unsw.edu.au/projects/sex-industry-new-south-wales-report-nsw-ministry-health)

Ah but I forgot-you don?t believe surveys because no one tells the truth-its odd then that various international surveys concur in their results-that the majority of prostitutes say they choose to prostitute and the rates of reported harm are not dissimilar across jurisdictions

WhentheRed · 21/08/2013 02:35

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

FloraFox · 21/08/2013 06:08

lib I'm with When - your assertions are mere assumptions. What credentials does Jon Millward have for a scientific study? From what I can see he is a freelance pop-psych type writer without a scientific background. I did have a quick look at his blog post and it seemed highly subjective - full of "I think" and "I don't think".

Pro tip: sciencey-type papers are not written like that.

*inwino" I refuse to read non-evidence written by an author who herself says the paper is not representative of women in prostitution. If you can't do a better job of selling it, don't expect a better result.

You haven't done any better in selling these other papers. Who wrote these? Who paid for them? The survey sizes are not impressive and you haven't said anything to address the issues I raised in the other thread about the inherent problems in surveying prostitutes. I'm not surprised you've taken from those issues that I don't believe surveys because I don't believe people are telling the truth. I could barely expect less from you.

However even from your own statistics, you are crowing about the fact that only 50% of women in street prostitution had been raped. Are you fucking kidding?

Pro tip 1: It's PhD not pHD.
Pro tip 2: If you want to sound clever, learn how to cite properly.

BitBewildered · 21/08/2013 07:56

50%! And that's ok is it? Fucking hell.

BTW it's easy to link iww - you just put 'and '' around the link.

scallopsrgreat · 21/08/2013 10:14

"What credentials does Jon Millward have for a scientific study?" He's a bloke and pro-prostitution. Come on Flora, get with the programme Wink

inwinoweritas · 21/08/2013 10:41

Flora: The Jenkins thesis (which you refuse to read) never claimed to be representative of all women in prostitution-it dealt with only one sector-those who solicit their clients over the internet-which now probably represent a very large slice (perhaps the majority) of those who prostitute in the UK.
You say ?You haven't done any better in selling these other papers. Who wrote these? Who paid for them?? Well the authors? names are given-if you cared to follow the links to the papers it tells you who wrote and who paid for them. But since you can?t be bothered this one time I will make it easy for you:
The Danish report (Prostiution I Danmark) was written by Jens Kofod, Theresa Frøkjær Dyrvig, Kristoffer Markwardt, Ninna Lagoni, Rebekka Bille, Tina Termansen, Line Christiansen, Eva Juul Toldam & Magne Vilshammer. The forward provides the information? In this report we present the results from the SFI (the Danish National Centre for social Research) mapping of prostitution in Denmark. The survey was intended to determine the extent of prostitution in Denmark and generate knowledge about prostitution,including uncovering prostitution organization and the prostitutes living conditions. The survey is based on both qualitative and quantitative data and the results obtained with the help of a number of organizations,public bodies and individuals who have had an impact on the studyprogress and results. We would therefore like to thank the National Police After Research, Nest International and venue in Copenhagen, which has provided data and knowledge available. In addition, we thank Hope Now, a social worker / treats Tiller Lorentzen, nest Aarhus and nestOdense for assistance with data collection, and we thank Services Agency, Centre against Human Trafficking, Competence Centre Prostitution, ProVest, Street jurist, sex workers Protects the interests (SIO), Copenhagen police, Swan groups, Copenhagen, Danish Red Cross Women's Centre in Dragor, Sexual Political Forum and nest Copenhagen. In addition, we thank the reference group to help With their knowledge, advice and input along the way. Finally, we thank the many female and male current and former prostitutes who participated in the study for their time and willingness to share their experiences and opinions with us. Their open and nuanced stories and responses have been crucial to the development of the report. The report was prepared by the researcher Jens Kofod, research assistant Theresa Frøkjær Dyrvig, research assistant Kristoffer Markwardt,
stud.scient.anth. Ninna Lagoni, stud.scient.anth. Rebekah Bille, stud.scient.anth. Tina Termansen, stud.scient.pol. Line Mehlsen Christiansen, stud.scient.anth. Eva Juul Toldam and stud.soc. Magne Vilshammer. Research Lise Sand Ellerbæk has assisted with processing of quantitative data. Stud.scient.pol. Agnes Aslaug Kjær has assisted in the collection of qualitative data and survey
initial phase. Stud.scient.soc. Life Bjerre has assisted with implementation of interviews and examination of prostitution among men. Research Professor Margaretha Järvinen and researcher Lars Benjaminsen has commented on the project group's work during the course. Research Professor Mette Ejrnæs and researcher Edith Madsen (in cooperation with scientific assistant Kristoffer Markwardt) contributed to the development of counting method and written annex to its report.
May-Len Skilbrei, institute director at the Fafo in Norway, has worked as referee. We thank you for valuable and constructive comments.? The Resume says ?Prostitution in Denmark is undergoing a change and the purpose of this survey is to provide updated information on this subject. We have used several different methodologies in this survey, and prostitution has been mapped out using both qualitative and quantitative methods as well as a literature study. We have used qualitative methods such as interviews, observation and reviewing records from a social services programme aimed at foreign prostitutes. The interviews were conducted with present and former prostitutes in different types of prostitution, as well as with NGO professionals and public authorities. The quantitative methods we have used include two 24-hour counts of street prostitutes, a questionnaire survey and an advertisement count, providing data to assess the extent of prostitution, and specific knowledge about the living conditions of sex workers.
In addition, we have collected data from the National Centre of Investigation of the National Commission of the Danish Police as well as from the Mødestedet, a support centre for foreign female sex workers in the red-light district of Copenhagen, Vesterbro.?

The New Zealand report was commissioned by the ?Prostitution law review committee of the NZ Government? As you may be aware prostitution is decriminalized in NZ-and the Government was required to commission a survey of the impact. This report forms part of that. (and 770 is a pretty good sample size btw) The report was written by Gillian Abel Liza Fitzgerald and Cheryl Brunton of the Department of Public Health and General Practice University of Otago Christchurch NZ and funded by the Health Resources Council of New Zealand and the Ministry of Justice.

The data from Queensland (where prostitution is legalized) comes from a large survey authored by Ms Charrlotte Woodward, RN,Grad Cert (Sexual Health Nursing), MN Women?s Health School of Population Health (QADREC), The University of Queensland and School of Public Health, Queensland University of Technology Ms Jane Fischer, BA, MSPD School of Population Health (QADREC), The University of Queensland
Professor Jake M. Najman, BA (Hons), PhD School of Social Science and School of Population Health (QADREC),
The University of Queensland Associate Professor Michael Dunne, BA (Hons), PhD School of Public Health,
Queensland University of Technology and was commissioned by the Prostitution licensing Authority.Charlotte Seib whose thesis I reference worked on this project-the reason I reference her thesis is that it is freely available whereas her papers are behind the publishers subscription wall. The work was funded by the Queensland Prostitution Licensing Authority

The report on Western Australia (where prostitution is illegal) was written by Basil Donovan National Centre in HIV Epidemiology and Clinical Research University of New South Wales and Sydney Sexual Health Centre Sydney Hospital Christine Harcourt National Centre in HIV Epidemiology and Clinical Research University of New South Wales and Sydney Sexual Health Centre Sydney Hospital Sandra Egger Faculty of Law University of New South Wales Karen Schneider National Centre in HIV Epidemiology and Clinical Research University of New South Wales Jody O?Connor National Centre in HIV Epidemiology and Clinical Research University of New South Wales Lewis Marshall Sexual Health Service Fremantle Hospital Marcus Y Chen School of Population Health The University of Melbourne and Melbourne Sexual Health Centre Christopher K Fairley School of Population Health The University of Melbourne and Melbourne Sexual Health Centre the work was funded by the department of Health of the Government of Western Australia and also by the National Health and Medical Research Council of Australia.

The report on New South Wales Australia (where prostitution is legalized) was written by Basil Donovan and Christine Harcourt The Kirby Institute, University of New South Wales and Sydney Sexual Health Centre, Sydney Hospital Sandra Egger Faculty of Law, University of New South Wales Lucy Watchirs Smith, Karen Schneider, Handan Wand and John M Kaldor The Kirby Institute, University of New South Wales Marcus Y Chen and Christopher K Fairley School of Population Health, University of Melbourne and Melbourne Sexual Health Centre Sepehr Tabrizi Royal Women?s Hospital, Melbourne The acknowledgements say ?The Law and Sexworker Health (LASH) team would like to thank the NSW Ministry of Health for funding the productionof this report. However the views expressed in the Report are not necessarily those of the Ministry. The LASH project was originally funded by the National Health and Medical Research Council (Project grant no.352437). We would like to thank Julie Bates, Jody O?Connor, Kate Demaere, the staff of SWOP and A/Prof Anna McNulty, Heng Lu, and the Multicultural Health Promotion team at SSHC for their assistance with data collection.

Now you will no doubt dismiss without reading all the above cited work by respected academics because you ?know? that no one tells the truth. And I assure you flora that I have read all these reports and I don?t have ? no understanding of their meaning or what makes them poor evidence.? Nor am I ?just regurgitating any old crap I've read about on a pimp or punter website.? Perhaps you should read the report first before dismissing them?

And I am not ?crowing? about the levels or rape and violence experienced by street prostitutes. I find the problem with much of the rhetoric about prostitution is that campaigners take these figures for street prostitutes (which after all are the minority of all prostitutes) and then generalize them as applying to all prostitutes-which is fundamentally dishonest.

And you (typically) add a couple of insults-learn to cite properly-how have I cited incorrectly? I used the citations as suggested by the authors of the reports.

When the red: you ask can I define girl Friend experience-or hobbyist, I refer to the paper I cite where they say p795 ???the girlfriend experience,?? or GFE ?..Refer(s) to encounters that replicate aspects of non-remunerative relationships and also contain conventional sex acts .p803 ?A number of our items sought to shed more light on what was meant by the girlfriend experience.Table 5 presents responses when customers were asked, what makes a GFE? The mostcommonly selected item was Acts like a girlfriend and not a prostitute at all (80.2%), followedby romantic and tender toward you (78.5%) and happy and cheerful personality (75.3%).

? As to ?hobbyist the paper says p 796 ?The present study provides information on the sexual behavior, motives, and characteristics of a highly elusive population of regular clients of prostitutes who consider themselves ??hobbyists.?? These men are part of an on-line community based around prostitute review websites in which clients post reviews of their experiences and also communicate on-line with Internet Sexual Service Providers (ISSP) ?

Hope that is sufficient