The invisible men project

[ArmyOfPenguins]

I think it's important that the buyers' choices in prostitution are highlighted and shared. This project was linked to on FB. Thoughts? I think it's a great idea.

the-invisible-men.tumblr.com/

beach indeed!

sg please stop derailing this thread. You supposedly came back to answer When's question (which she graciously gave you the credit of being able to follow) but you've actually just wittered on about whatever thought seems to be passing through your brain as your fingers hit the keyboard. We are not here to listen to you rambling on with your mispgynistic nonsense nor to educate you.

Beachcomber redirected avoidance because you can't answer.

And please stop using the misogyny card when you are arguing about over sensitive feminist views and not women in general which is what "misogyny" covers.

The truth is, as I mentioned right at the beginning, you are twisting just about everything in society, male or otherwise, in order to create something for feminists (not women, so not misogyny at all) to complain about.

the mackinnon chapter on rape

As a law professor, MacKinnon brings up the standard for rape: there is "more force than usual" during intercourse.

I despair.

Well there you go Beach, the man who doesn't believe we live in male dominated society is here to tell you what misogyny means. And he "despairs" at Catherine MacKinnon. So that's her analysis dismantled then. Because a man who has been unable to grasp the most basic point of this discussion despairs. Got it laydeez, you can all pipe down now.

SG Christ, please stop the repeated (and now qute boring) attempts to derail.

You've said that you're not going to reply on this thread a number of times now. So I come back to see that someone has added to the discussion, looking forward to reading more thought provoking intelligent comments and surprise surfuckingprise, it's another 52 posts from you - typing out whatever nonsense flows through your ill informed and angry mind. On top of that, you are using a number of words that you clearly do not have full understanding of.

If you'd like a one man discussion on SGs interpretation of life, mysogyny, consent, feminism and everything then please start a new thread titled as such. You can write as much as you want, every day, 100 times a day if you like, and we will all promise to read it and to point any other simple minded female toward the thread for educating.

I know we don't have a hide poster button, but maybe if we all pretended there was one, and just didn't rise to the bait, we could have a discussion, albeit one with a bizarre thread-within-a-thread sequence of non-sequiturs scattered among the more interesting posts.

It would be interesting to see how long the thread-within-a-thread continued.

Well I didn't reply to your pm sg because I only just realised I got one (I have a RL too!). But in relation to that, I'd rather you didn't pm me.

You are the one generalising about men sghueks. I just don't agree with your generalisations. We are both doing a class analysis. You are saying ordinary men like to wank over picture of women in women's catalogues. That is pretty generalising. You are suggesting women are "temptation". That is pretty generalising. But feminism uses class analysis. We are well aware that men don't work as a homogenous group. However, just like your analysis we work on significant numbers. And to come in and start dictating how we should be arguing is pretty arrogant.

I don't think that men are wired to objectify women - which is what you are describing, not sexual attraction. Wanking over women dressed in lingerie isn't sexual attraction, it is objectification. They have no interest in the woman, as a person, posing in lingerie or the prostitute they are shagging.

How is that blaming women?

Actually you are right, sg it is more absolving men of the responsibility for their actions, in a "But she was just so tempting m'lord" way. When do women stop being "tempting" and start being, well, humans, with feelings and personalities and more than the sum of their parts? But you were blaming women for posing in women's lingerie magazines for men objectifying them. Not very nice.

And I don't think Beachcomber is avoiding. She is just plain ignoring.

Oops! Sorry Lurcio. Cross-posted there . Took me ages to write that!

i'm on a lovely camping holiday at the moment and having a quiet afternoon reading and idly MNing. once home and with pc will gladly discuss mackinnon - i cant start the thread just now as would need to link to pdf, quote, etc and my phone will explode if i attempt any of that. if anyone else fancies starting the thread go right ahead. there is a link to a pdf of the relevent chapter upthread.

i also would love a discussion on the concept of "sexual intelligence" as analysed by Dworkin. it probably fits it pretty well with a discussion about MacKinnon. again i would need to quote to do it justice.

thanks for your thanks lurcio

as i said upthread i learnt about consent as an aspect of patriarchal rape culture from other radical feminists. when women get to share and discuss and NAME lightbulb moments happen. often they are painful but they are also liberating.

i dont think you are the one who needs to do any apologising whenthered! you asked a valid on topic question.

oooh such misandry here.

My MacKinnon despair: Rape does not necessarily require "more force than usual", all it requires is lack of consent at any time. Even halfway through the act if the woman says "no I want to stop" but does nothing to physically prevent the man continuing and he so does continue with the same force as usual, then that, in my opinion, is rape.

WhentheRed I asked you But first please clarify what do you mean by "dealt with"? Please expand on your question.

How does that become: " incapable of answering. Instead they disappear or try to derail."?

The reason I asked is because I was unsure of what you meant because they cannot be "dealt with" as such. So I wondered if you had worded your question incorrectly, it seems you had. So clearly when you asked:

"How should these punters be dealt with?" so I think what you meant to ask was How do you view these punters, what is your opinion of them? as demonstrated by your own example answers, okay? So now I have the correct question I can answer it.

Until I stumbled upon this thread and the Invisible Man project, I thought of those types of posts as reports; some fakes, some real and many exaggerated. The attitude of the writers I more or less dismissed as "boys will be boys" and I suppose that reading stuff like that over time, had resulted in some desensitising of my own feelings. Reading posts here and the Invisible Man project page has completely changed my view and I feel disgusted and almost sick to my stomach that any part of society could be reduced to this attitude towards even a cockroach, never mind actual behaviour towards women. Even eradicating a genuine pest and health hazard should not be done with such personal satisfaction towards the pest itself. This whole experience has changed me, my opinion of punters and my own outlook as a whole.

Does that answer your question?

And before anyone jumps on my example or misreads it; no, I am not comparing women to cockroaches.

scallopsrgreat: have you ever heard of "knight in shining armour" syndrome in connection with punters? If not, you might want to look it up with regard to this: They have no interest in the woman, as a person, posing in lingerie or the prostitute they are shagging.

They can't have much interest in an image on a screen or in a magazine but they often do have a lot of interest in "the prostitute they are shagging" so I am sorry but you are mistaken.

Why is it that Men Rambling Anyoldshit so often use multiple posts? Saw that on another thread today as well.

I've found a pdf copy of the book Right-Wing Women online. Chapter 2 makes for interesting reading, in light of an earlier suggestion for a new thread on Sexual Intelligence. Incase anyone's interested in reading it here's a link.

Full book Right-wing Women

thanks for posting that pdf bunnylion. im reading the chapter "the politics of intelligence" which is where dworkin talks about "sexual intelligence".

the whole piece of work is searing feminist thought and analysis. every sentence is a gem of clarity and lightbulb material.

the point mackinnon is making is that absence of force on the part of the male does not equal presence of control on the part of the woman. she actually says this very clearly. it is an important point and one that most women know. we just arent encouraged to think about it in such clear terms.

Thanks Bunnylion - I've been meaning to read that for ages. Will make a start tonight after DS is in bed.

am now on chapter three ; "abortion"

and it is mindblowing too. how does Dworkin keep this pace up? she really was utterly brilliant and, in a less sexist world, would have been lauded as an amazing original thinker.

AFAIA "right-wing women" is currently out of print when it should, quite clearly, be considered one of the most important books of our time.

the irony is dreadful.

You've inspired me to read it Beachcomber. Here is a link to all Dworkin's work if anyone is interested.

From the start of the thread "Really sad - this is the reality of prostitution. None of that happy hooker nonsense hmm" - I know/have known many 'happy hookers'.
As for other questions directed my way - my pimp says I have to keep my mouth shut or he won't give me anymore drugs and he'll smash my face in while he's saying it.

Exactly. The so called "happy hookers" we keep reading about only say that because their pimp watches everything they do and post online.

The topic being discussed in this thread is the choices made by punters and in particular their own accounts as punters highlighted in the Invisible Men Project from the moderated site on which they were published.

As most primary school pupils know, information on the internet should be treated with a high degree of scepticism and should not be used in research unless the source can be verified and its reliability considered. You might bear this in mind.