Radfem 2013 and the MRAs

[MooncupGoddess]

As many of you will remember, the Radfem 2012 conference in London was explicitly open only to born women and consequently attracted lots of condemnation and anger from people who saw this as transphobic. It was kicked out of its original venue at Conway Hall and went underground (very successfully in the end).

This year Radfem 2013 has not explicitly banned transwomen... but instead it's come under attack from Men's Rights Activists, who have staged a demo at the planned venue, the London Irish Centre, while making lots of unpleasant and ridiculous claims about how radical feminists want to murder small boys and the like. As a result the venue is threatening to cancel the booking.

www.mralondon.org/

bugbrennan.com/2013/04/20/statement-from-rad-fem-2013/

I have mixed feelings about the whole trans issue but have no hesitation in declaring the MRAs utter misogynist knobbers and am disappointed the London Irish Centre has seemingly caved into them.

I'm just thinking that the "common man" on the street, the husbands, partners, ex-husbands the men that perhaps are socialised by the media, by porn, by the process of just being disadvantaged, read the sun newspaper or whatever or feel marginalised because of the tough economic situation and the fact that low skilled male workers are surplus in the modern world. These are the men that we should worry about. Both because (we) women live with these men & because these men are the ones most likely to display casual sexism and even hostility towards women. The men that benefit most by upholding patriarchal/class relations within society encourage this because it benefits them in terms of profit but also it obscures the real social relations under this oppressive socio/economic system.

Nothing would signal an end to patriarchal/class relations better than men coming on board and fighting it too

I do worry about those men.

So do loads of radical feminists.

I cannot glance through the FWR section without falling over threads about our husbands or sons or brothers. We do worry.

I don't understand what more we're meant to do? We have to not just 'worry', but actually put these men's needs so far ahead of our own, we can't even have a one-day conference to get together, to provide a space for those women who are too scared to talk elswhere, to talk?

I can see where you are coming from - you are just like everyone else, you know men who're decent men. This is not a singular position.

What is your solution for the women who would like to be able to talk about issues like, say, rape or prostitution or DV? Are you just saying 'well, they should really get over themselves and stop needing a safe space, because what matters most is men?'. Because I'm sure you don't mean to say that, but what else does what you're saying mean?

I do not belive that, in order to make common ground across different groups, we need never to meet up separately. Why?

And, you know, I am so tired of being told we 'should' worry about the men.

Yes, sure. We should and I think we mostly do. Is it not ok to maybe worry about the women something like, hmm, 1% of the time? And have shared meetings the other 99%, which will tend to be dominated by men?

I can't help thinking that if MRAs are so angry about RadFem 2013 and so invested in shutting it down, it's a pretty good sign that the organisers must be doing something right. I'm sorry I won't be able to go.

I'd like to draw everybody's attention to the fact that you can donate on the RadFem 2013 website to enable sisters (I like that too!) who wouldn't be able to afford it to be able to attend. I will be donating in lieu of attending.

Oh, I do see that people associate rad fem with being anti-trans, kim. I am trying to say, I'm standing up against that. I do not believe transphobia is acceptable, and I do not belive that the sort of abuse and threats and disgusting language that gets thrown at transpeople is in any way acceptable. It isn't.

I think debating the issues around gender and sex probably do need a safe space, TBH. I think they're really hard to debate.

I do want to be able to debate these points without being told I must be being transphobic for (for example), saying I do not personally have such a thing as 'gender identity', or for saying I do think that there are issues to do with pregnancy, abortion, childbirth, that are important to be discussed. I am aware that many transpeople would not object to me discussing those things, too - or so I understand from you, because you have been generous with your time and explained to me. I think we should be able to talk without getting into insults and abuse.

Anyway ...

God knows why the MRAs did what they did. No sense (IMO) trying to work it out.

fair - yep, true enough, must be doing something right.

Huh. And that was a genuine cross-post.

Yes, I agree, and I also feel I've gained a better understanding (though still very limited I know).

The whole 'what about the menz' thing is SO annoying. Do disabled groups get told they should be thinking about able-bodied people's problems more? FFS.

I agree that there is a level of nastiness at the more extreme ends of both the radfem and trans communities that is horrid and counter-productive... but lots of the things radfems talk about are so important and valuable that I hate seeing them shut down.

Kim we know exactly why the MRAs did what they did, because they talk about it openly on their websites. They hate feminists (all feminists, not just radfems) for reasons that are nothing to do with trans and everything to do with the MRA agenda, and they are completely open about how they are using trans this time simply because it is the best card for them to play. There's stuff on their sites that is far more transphobic than anything I've ever heard a radfem I know in RL say.

I'm glad GTM has only met nice MRAs but some of the less nice once are listed at the Southern Poverty Law Center's listing of misogynist hate sites here.

Oh, I think they do, FWIW, mooncup.

My mum used to get people ringing her up when she worked on a disability helpline with people being furious that the 'stupid' child in the class got special help.

Likewise - not disbility but indicative of how people think about privilege - my mate works in a university admissions office and told me she has more than once had a call from a parent whose child goes to Eton asking why there aren't any summer schools set up to help children from Eton approach the shocking idea of going to Oxbridge, and why they always focus on the kids from disadvantaged schools.

LRD

Clearly I had underestimated people's selfishness and stupidity. Can't help laughing at the demand for summer schools for Etonians, though. A quick google suggests that only about a third of Etonians get into Oxbridge each year :(

I know! It is fairly hiliarious if you don't think of it too hard.

Basically, I think the more privileged people are, the harder it is for them to see that privilege and the more they think they're being done down. It is kinda relevant here, somehow ...

Imagine the misery of having to go to Durham or Exeter when if you'd only been able to attend a three-week summer school funded entirely by the state you might have got into New College.

Indeed. Don't lets imagine the horror.

It'd be almost like, imagine if you'd grown up in a world where political leaders were groomed in all-male clubs that'd existed for centuries, and then some pesky women decided to get together to have a chat. You'd be horrified and justifiably upset.

But yes absolutely re privilege and entitlement. The terrifying thing about the MRAs is that they so fundamentally believe that they have a right to get the proper jobs and have a woman to make their home lives pleasant and provide sexual satisfaction.

Are you aware that the Southern Poverty Law Centre has been discredited itself on a number of occasions?

Are you talking about all MRAs? Again, are we saying extremists represent the majority view?

Non-sequitur?

What are you trying to ask?

Out of curiosity, would you have a problem with a men's room at a university or male only sessions at a gym?
It seems to me that there has been a major historic effort to shut down male spaces, yet we still promote female only space and events.
I'm curious how this is equality?

Any of you (I'm struggling to learn different forum layout! Used to threading replies from a number of forums I was part of a few years back)
This was in response to the assertion that MRAs sought to uphold traditional gender roles of the woman in the home and the man in the job

I'm just talking about the MRAs I've read, who may not be representative. They don't always say that but it often seems to be the subtext.

I'm sure there are lots of decent men who campaign for (say) more funds for prostate cancer research, or shared residence of children. However, for me anyone describing themselves as an Mens' Right Activist raises red flags... because men are not lacking in rights, and never have been. Just as someone campaigning for white/heterosexual/able-bodied rights would make me go

Do people with disabilities get told to worry about able bodied people.

Good point but IMO doesn't prove the efficacy of only discussing something with like minded people when trying to reach a solution. People with disabilities need to have a dialogue with others in order that everyone can understand the issues they face. And other people do have some responsibility for listening.

The problem with single issue activism of all sorts is that it can become very insulated. What is the point in talking to people who agree with you unless you only want to have your opinion validated. If we all hive off into groups and never test our theories, ideologies, ideas, bias and prejudice against others, you can end up with a sort of specialised group think that is hostile to anything outside of that hegemony. At that point no two groups can overcome the differences. esp if making progress relies upon others outside the group not opposing and challenging the changes.

Well - those of us on MN very much are having a dialogue with people who don't agree, Mini!

Mini - a couple of times a year people meet up with people who agree with them.

The rest of the time, it simply isn't possible to be insulated from the shit the rest of the world is throwing around.

I really don't think there's a huge danger that radical feminists will forget that the rest of the world doesn't agree with them...