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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Feminism: chat

Original poster

Women have their little careers till they have babies. Then they do as little as possible, preferably not working at all after that

531 replies

StealthPolarBear · 03/04/2013 13:27

I am infuriated by this attitude which seems to be prevalent. After women have had babies they only work if they have to, and go part time if they can. But I can't put into words why I work - why wouldn't I? I work for the same reasons as I did before I had children. I work for the same reasons as DH works.
Either of us could give up work and we'd cope. But that was true pre-children. Women continuing to work FT seems to be a slur on their man's ability to 'provide'.

OP posts:
SatsukiKusukabe · 03/04/2013 20:46

Also now that maternity leave is basically equal oppertunity, will men start getting the same questions? Like when are you going to take 3 months off to spend time with you dc?

happyfrogger · 03/04/2013 20:48

Stealthsquiggle

Once biological factors (recovery from childbirth, BF) are no longer an issue, why should one parent be any more or less necessary to a child ?

Yes - completely agreed, but in response:

  • Because there is often something to say for having an established routine, there may be no explicit reason or will to change it, and often isn't
  • Because if both parents are enjoying or benefiting from the existing arrangement, why change it just for the same of challenging 'gender roles'
  • Because it may be a better option financially

By all means, ladies should never have to dismiss the option to your pre-baby career hours and structure and have fathers step into a primary carer role if it is the better choice for your family. But the point is, changing a happy and working arrangement it JUST because you are annoyed at perhaps fitting a sterotype (that happens to fit for your family FOR NOW) is a bit silly.

For me, it's about logic, finances preference and choice for both of us - and anyone else's preconceptions would never even come into it.

Original poster
StealthPolarBear · 03/04/2013 20:50

Who is changing an arrangement that is working to challenge roles? Who is being silly? Straw man argument

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stealthsquiggle · 03/04/2013 20:50

Happyfrogger "are you planning on going back FT",coming from interested family is hardly in the same league as "such a shame you can't be around for the DC every night" and other such insidious comments from all and sundry. One deserves a reasoned response. The other deserves to be put to the test of "would you say the same to their father"

happyfrogger · 03/04/2013 20:52

StealthPolarBear

So you don't see why asking the woman of the couple "how do you manage working full time with children?" Is implying thatbchildcare is her issue?

But it has been my issue so far. So the question is reasonable and obvious when I'm the one who has done it for the last year, and I'm the one who is physically changing my daily routine by returning to work.

If the question was asked when my kids were 10 maybe I would think differently. But in the young-children returning to work days I don't think it implies anything, it's just observational.

DuelingFanjo · 03/04/2013 20:52

I am not sure what the OP means? But I was really annoyed to discover that people I work with were discussing why I had decided to come back full time in an 'oh no, I never thought she would do that' way. Mind you, I don't have a career as such, just a job.

stealthsquiggle · 03/04/2013 20:54

I am NOT talking about changing an established routine for the sake of it, FGS. I am talking about challenging stupid assumptions. Established routine is a nonsense anyway. Mat leave could well be 6 months or less. Just how bloody established is anything at that point?

Original poster
StealthPolarBear · 03/04/2013 20:54

I'm not suggesting every sahm should return to work. As I have said many times each family does what is best for them and I wouldn't presume to comment. But in general I've noticed an assumption that a woman will cut down her hours o the bare minimum as supported by her oh after having a baby. Because why would she work if she doesn't have to? And that's what I object to

OP posts:
Original poster
StealthPolarBear · 03/04/2013 20:55

Ok. My kids are six and three. Been back at work full time for over two years. So the comment, to me, is not referring to any established routine.

OP posts:
Original poster
StealthPolarBear · 03/04/2013 20:56

Duelling, were they all after your job ?

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pommedechocolat · 03/04/2013 20:56

The whole work children thing is one of the hardest things I've ever done/am still doing. Despite working in a very male dominated industry with some very chauvinist men the whole kids vs work issue is the only time I've really felt anti feminist sentiment in society.

AND I am totally frigging lucky, my dad has a company in the industry I work in and dh and I work together sharing work and childcare. Even with that setup I still feel judged all the time. I feel judged by sahm. I feel judged by full time mums. I feel judged by pretty much all males.

When will each family makes their own choice ever be ok?!

stealthsquiggle · 03/04/2013 20:57

SPB mine are 6 and 10 and I still get the comments.

SatsukiKusukabe · 03/04/2013 21:00

Mat leave could well be 6 months or less. Just how bloody established is anything at that point?

Especially compared to say a decade or two of education and building a career for some women.

As soon as you decide to go back to work, arranging child care is not your problem. It is yours and your partners joint problem frog

happyfrogger · 03/04/2013 21:00

Ok, so I guess I can only speak from experience. But nobody has ever given me the 'such a shame' tone, or if they have, I haven't felt judged. My DH has had people comment that it's a shame he only sees DD in the mornings. And he says, 'yes, it is'. But so what? It's our choice?

I don't feel 'opinionated' by threads like this one, but I am always curious about how everyone else does feel so judged, and why people are so keenly ready to defend their choices (i.e. like the bfeeding point earlier) when in RL I can't say I have ever experienced this to such an extreme as people often quote on threads.

Curious, that's all Smile

Didn't intend to rant on so much!

SatsukiKusukabe · 03/04/2013 21:06

Depends on your friends and family though frog, you sound lucky! :)

Like with bf, you pick a side and you often feel judged one way or the other but if you spend a bit of time online or talking to friends you do hear stories of people verbally abusing bf women, so sometimes I think becuse it matters to you, you sort of steele your self up for a fight? You know what I mean? Like, go one, have a go, I fucking dare you. I think it's almost to make yourself ready if someone says something so you dont turn in to a mess. Rather than hoping someone will say something rude

WidowWadman · 03/04/2013 21:16

When I was about 30 weeks pregnant with my first my then employer tried to select me for redundancy (which I fought successfully, because their selection criteria were pants and applied incorrectly) - it was a very stressful time, and not made easier by some idiots commenting "aww, don't worry about it, you won't want to work once you had the baby anyway". I'm still angry years later.

scottishmummy · 03/04/2013 21:19

i went back ft after 6mth.the only jip i got was from females (not work colleagues obv)
it ranged from the face,to outright hostility and why have em to leave with strangers
colleagues at work,friends,family all supportive of return to work.not til mn did i know the ferocity of feeling about this

i work ft because i want to,dont need to financially -am fortunate in that i love my career
i dont want to be financially dependent upon a partner
and i dont want to enact a patriarchal stereotype of man work,wee woman potter about at home largely occupied with him, and childcare
i want my dc to a have role model of seeing mum work and contribute and not solely dad work,mum at home

i think if woman chooses to be housewife she is enacting a stereotypical role,which to an extent fulfils the comment op is discussing

morethanpotatoprints · 03/04/2013 21:23

I think its awful if women are made to feel like this, but also as a sahm welcome the choice. I know you are not bashing sahm's OP, it does exist though at great depths sometimes.
Surely, shouldn't we welcome the choices we already have. I know its not ideal and theres a long way to go yet, but it seems like equality is heading in the right direction no?

exoticfruits · 03/04/2013 21:27

I found that everyone expected me to go back to work.

scottishmummy · 03/04/2013 21:27

i do challenge the i suppose you had to work comments (err no i didn't have to.i chose to)
its as if it s beyond comprehension that a woman wants to retain career and be a mum
its not a giving things up competition.prove you care by abandoning self to muthahood

scottishmummy · 03/04/2013 21:30

all friends,family and work colleagues expected me to return
i met the precious moments crew pg and postnatal gp they were priceless
and the mw who asked me what did you used to do (past tense)?as if id died

Original poster
StealthPolarBear · 03/04/2013 21:39

Potato I am grateful for what has gone before and the choices I have. I do actually consider myself to hav had children in the heyday of maternity pay and leave. I don't think women now have it as good. However I wasn't around when things were worse, I have no personal experience of things getting better. I can only personally see now, and that men and women aren't equal in the workplace or at home, and this is perpetuated by the attitude that women's careers are disposable. And while I am grateful things have improved, I want them to improve further,

OP posts:
stealthsquiggle · 03/04/2013 21:42

I am sure there are an equivalent set of comments made to SAHDs to which the response "would you say/ask the same to their mother?" would be appropriate. I know DH gets very wound up by DD's teacher asking when I will be home, for example.

Original poster
StealthPolarBear · 03/04/2013 21:46

Dh looks after our children two days a week Shock as I work two long days and stay over the night in between. Mil and mum come up on the days to do child care. When mil is here she stays to cook their tea and bath and put children to bed. Dh lets her of course. Very nice of her but when she delivers the children into my capable hands she sees no need to make sure they're fed, bathed or put to bed :o

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Passmethecrisps · 03/04/2013 21:47

This is a fascinating discussion.

When I was pregnant I had a number of colleagues say things to me such as "oh well, you'll not be caring about this anymore" and "it's amazing how quickly you stop caring about work"

I was really riled by these but thinking back they were made by one or two women. One of them said "I left my brain in the maternity ward 20 years ago" and this made me a bit sad. There was nothing wrong with her brain but she obviously just felt a bit lacking.

I went to work to say hi recently and a few people commiserated about my impending return with the comment "you'll be dreading it". I'm not dreading it. I love my work and always have. I love my baby and am naturally anxious about leaving her. Can't I be both?

My DH will do the childcare when I go back as I earn a good income. Despite the fact I have a job and he doesn't is flexible many people have been surprised that I am returning full time.

When I can see past my own shoulder chip however, I realise that none of this is about me or my family's choices but about their own. Or, as I think froggy said merely chat. I do get how subjugated stay at home mums must feel. If it is any consolation, I am not sure stay at home dads get a great deal either