Women have their little careers till they have babies. Then they do as little as possible, preferably not working at all after that

[StealthPolarBear]

I am infuriated by this attitude which seems to be prevalent. After women have had babies they only work if they have to, and go part time if they can. But I can't put into words why I work - why wouldn't I? I work for the same reasons as I did before I had children. I work for the same reasons as DH works.
Either of us could give up work and we'd cope. But that was true pre-children. Women continuing to work FT seems to be a slur on their man's ability to 'provide'.

potatoprints, this is the belief system that you described that I feel is holding women back. It is partly cultural because there are societies that would look at you sideways if you said that:

"Now, personally I feel if I was working, with childcare assistance that I would not be raising my children, somebody else would be. Now a million rants from others thinking differently is not going to change my view because it is personal to me, the same as other views are personal to others."

rubyruby, I would really want to try and understand how and what SAHPs do to make their mark in the big bad world.

Blueshoes

So the big bad world is employment then, ah I see now.
Maybe its good I can be sheltered from it then

Blueshoes

Can you not see though, just because I feel like that doesn't mean that you should. You obviously feel differently hence you wohm.
I'm hardly holding you back.

potatoprints, why do you need to be sheltered from employment? Will it bite?

Lots of people enjoy their jobs.

potatoprints, you are not holding me back - actually I am not even talking on a personal level, so not sure the reason for your statement.

I am just pointing out the political implications of your choice and many others like you with similar belief systems that reinforce societal perceptions of women as slackers after children that will hold your dd (if she chooses to work) and my dd back.

I don't feel the need to make a mark, I did this years ago and it doesn't interest me in the slightest now. I am secure and at a good stage now and don't want to work for an employer. If an employer/woh is the big bad world then I don't need it and am sheltered from having to do it.
There are other ways to contribute to society than employment.

Anyway, am off to do temperature check on dd she has a flu like virus poor love.

potatoprints: "You see it that you are raising your children with help of nursery and au pair, another wohm may see it as although she is working she is 100% raising her dc not mentioning the au pair has any input. Straight away 2 different beliefs."

I don't agree it is 2 different belief systems. I mentioned my aupair not in the context of seeing her as raising my children but to give her and nursery staff credit. I would agree with the other wohm that dh and I are 100% raising our dcs. My aupair does not raise my dcs anymore than your dcs' teachers are raising yours. That is hardly controversial.

Blue shoes: Ouch! That was not nice. I think we all just want our girls to be happy and the best that they can be, whatever they choose to do in life.

No one has mentioned (unless I've missed it) whether our mothers worked or not and how this may have influenced our own choices regarding parenthood and work. Did we respect our mothers any more or any less because they worked or stayed at home?

I do think that the question of whether to work once you've become a mum is increasingly polarising. Maybe since women can now 'have it all' we feel an unnecessary pressure to go chasing after all of it: the career, the family, the active social life, the healthy lifestyle choices... even when it doesn't suit our personality or our circumstances!

As a mother of 2 DDs under the age of 2(!) I am honestly feeling overwhelmed at the prospect of returning to work later this year. And I know things will only get more complicated as they get older with school activities etc.

I can see both sides of the issue, and my feelings are very mixed right now.

Feminism is about choice,and awareness of how your choice impacts
I'm bemused An adult woman needs sheltered from employment by male
Message to kids is if need sheltered, they too will need a waged partner

Quiet,why will things get worse with after school activities?will they fall to you?
Frankly if mandarin/violin/tennis is at 4pm and you're at work it's not achievable
Your kids are 2yo why are you anticipating problematic activity schedule? Just because everyone else does it doesn't mean you have to

Of course you don't have to do those things, SM, but if your kid is passionate about something and you can afford to do it, both logistically and financially,..then why wouldn't you sign them up for a sport or hobby?They contribute to health and happiness.

Scottish Mummy, I was thinking that since the school day ends at 3pm and the FT work day ends at 5pm it will be more complicated for my DH and I to coordinate pick ups. And there will be a year of one DD being in school while the other DD is still at nursery, ugh!

Fortunately DH is a public servant working shift patterns so is available some days each week for all of this stuff. I just feel like we will need a militaristic schedule to manage it all! That's not even taking into account extra activities for the girls.

Just need to think it all through and make sure we understand all the options available to us at whatever school we choose. Still early days yet of course!

You plan!after school, nursery til 6,maybe you both do seperate pickup
A dizzying schedule of activities isn't obligatory,nor is lack of detrimental
Activities can happen at w'end.school playdates and collect after work

Thanks Scottish! I agree children don't have to be involved in too many various activities (and as their Mum I would quite like to spend time with them too!)

Even at this early stage of their lives I can see that it's all about excellent planning.

Batch cook,lay out clothes night before,shared diary,parents share tasks
Yes it's planning and organization but not insurmountable
If you think you'll need cm for pick ups look ahead,ask for recommendations

Again this feels like a discussion about middle class peoples lives, which involve au pairs and driving around the town to different activities!

There are plenty of fathers who work around kids. Taxi drivers, bus drivers, security guards, retail workers, cleaners, those who work shift work often take on caring responsibilities on the days/hours they are at home! This is quite normal. My husband has his hours altered so that he can drop dd1 to school before going to work, and so he can be back home on the days I need his help with taking kids to extra curricular activites. Even though I am a SAHM, he still helps.

This is the same for most women I know. A friend of mine sometimes sells food at events on the weekend, her husband enables this by looking after the children.

I disagree with Stealth, I think for as many people who expect you to stay at home, there are just as many who expect you to go to work!

and as for blusocks, because you are not in paid employment, doesn't mean your children don't see you doing worthwhile things. I do not feel validation for my actions according to the economic recompense I receive. I know I do a lot of worthwhile work that I wouldn't be able to do otherwise.

I agree with morethan there are other ways of contributing to society.

blueshoes I organise and am involved in a lot of community and voluntary work. Things like MSLC, DV support etc. The fact is if the women didnt see me around every day they wouldn't trust me. Being a SAHM has enabled me to help people in my community.

nailak.

I don't think the activity thing for dc is typical of middle class, we certainly aren't. Although we don't have an au pair.

My dh also shares all the domestic responsibilities too and always has even though I'm sahm. I suppose its the same for both type of families, you work as a team.

Blueshoes
My dd does not go to school so how would a teacher be raising her. I told you we raise our dc ourselves, provide our own care and education along with other specialised professionals.

I don't do huge amounts of voluntary work but have spells of helping in charity shops, did help at school, PTA, Homewatch, and regularly shop and run errands for the o.A.Ps in our street. Have also been friend of our park as volunteer gardening, clearing, signing etc.

i would say oap errands is voluntary work

nailak

I couldn't live with myself if I didn't call on them. Some have no family or family are too busy etc. They know me and trust me, ikwym about being seen around.
I think there is a need for people with time to do this especially as services are being cut. I know its not on a par with a high flying career but to me its just as important. My dd is getting involved now and enjoys baking and cooking stews and casseroles. We tie it all in with PHSE so she learns a lot about life and picks up skills

My own mother worked, but as a teacher she was always home when we were. I suppose I remember the mumsy things she did rather than the fact that she held a job outside the home. I certainly have a new respect for my parents who both spent so much time driving me and my sisters to our various dance lessons and sports events when we were teenagers!

I think its true that fathers are now more involved in childcare and are also quite capable of helping around the house. My DH works shifts and his work pattern allows him to spend more time with our girls during the day. He takes them to 'Music with Mummy' which is quite funny actually as there are several dads who attend!

At the end of the day I think all of our mumsnet children are lucky to have involved committed parents, in paid employment or otherwise.

I think that a major part of the problem is that part time workers are seen as lesser than full time ones.

Often, if a company has to make redundancies, it is part timers who go first. Also, they are often prevented from certain promotions and pay rises. Yet capitalism requires a flexible work force, and part timers provide a valuable part to that.

As someone who has been in a minor management role, I saw no evidence that part timers were any less good as employees than full timers. If we gave more respect to different people having different lifestyles, it would be easier for men and women to have a less rigid stereotypical role at work and home.

Which should mean that families were able to exercise their right to choice, without feelings the pressures of what society/work expects, but I fear I'm being a little naive and idealistic.

Agree that part time workers are often under valued and they are often the first to go.

blueshoes Thu 04-Apr-13 23:18:17 - rubyruby, I would really want to try and understand how and what SAHPs do to make their mark in the big bad world.

I hope you don't mind this answer - Unpaid work is the largest sector of any economy. And, all around the world, most of that work is performed by women!!!

As for the big bad world - we do seem to have an economic system where oil disasters war contribute to the economy, while child-rearing and housekeeping are deemed not of value.!
[ open your eyes]]

On and Blue Shoes as for the "I am just pointing out the political implications of your choice and many others like you with similar belief systems that reinforce societal perceptions of women as slackers after children that will hold your dd (if she chooses to work) ..." Do you really believe this?

Don?t you think the market only survives because of the backbone of unpaid work? Work like Nallk undertakes in the community.

?The language of economics by defining it as a value system in which all goods and activities are related only to their monetary value. As a result, unpaid work (usually performed by women) is unrecognized. There are lots of activities that may be environmentally and socially detrimental but are deemed productive because of their monetary value."

Blueshoes writes ?If women place their home and hearth at the epicentre of their lives with no tangible stake in the wealth-producing external society, it is difficult to see how they would not end up consciously or subconsciously marginalised even with the best of intentions. Their contribution to society becomes tied up with their dh's more tangible contribution but that still puts women in the dependent and auxillary position when why shouldn't they be out there as well??

Unpaid work is the largest sector of any economy. And, all around the world, most of that work is performed by women!!!

Don?t have a pop at Stay at Home Parents just because the economic system does not value their contribution. Or that the paid working set up in the Uk favours one sex over another.

The "market" only survives because of the backbone of unpaid work. Hells bells with your logic blueshoes you had better not undertake paid work at all - as by doing so you are just further supporting the patriarchy by joining the "system".

Anyhow the link should now work and I hope it offers some good definitions - Unpaid work is the largest sector of any economy. And, all around the world, most of that work is performed by women!!!

And don't even get me talking about "choice" and the so called "choices" we all have. Tell that to someone looking after a child, or a disabled child or caring for a sick relative - who is not say on a lawyer's salary and who is not in a position where they can pay for replacement activity (such as an au pair, nursery worker, specialist nurse) while continuing to fight the good fight and go out to paid work!