Really proud of my 17 year old daughter

[NicholasTeakozy]

She posted a staus on Facebook which read:-

Seen a few status' tonight that have kind of annoyed me. I don't consider myself a feminist, but with issues like this I am. Why are women's bodies over-sexualised all the time? Why can men walk around with their tops off showing off their bodies but it isn't socially acceptable for a woman to do so? Why are women deemed "disgusting" or "sluts" if they do exactly what a man does? Why is there such a taboo on our bodies but men can prance about however the fuck they wish? Nah, fuck that. Ladies, do what you like with your body (within reason). Fuck all you patriarchal cunts.


Cue two of her male friends who argued that women who dress in skimpy clothing are more likely to be harassed and sexually assaulted to which she replied it's the rapists' fault, not the women. Over the course of an hour she tore all their arguments apart and made them look stupid. She really brought a smile to my face and made me swell with pride to see such passion and anger in one so young.

[Sparklyboots]

Excuse me? I'm not being 'silly' but objecting to the fact that your assumption that a Professor is male; your use of 'lady' without recognising its ideological impact while criticising the use of the word 'cunt' on similar lines; and your decision to describe my objections as 'silly' which if you took any notice of your 'feminism in literature' course, you would recognise as a classic strategy deployed against feminist objections by those who'd rather undermine the status of the speaker than address the substance of their argument. Which is why we're mostly politely ignoring your grammar etc.

[EduCated]

Snorting at 'do you know his name'. Oh the irony.

Did she receive any positive comments on FB, OP?

[Lio]

OP I hope my daughter turns out like yours, language and all, she sounds terrific and I heart her

[NicholasTeakozy]

Other than me Edu, no. Although she did manage to convert one of her opponents to her argument.

Lio, if all our daughters are taught that sexism is despicable and they should challenge it robustly then I think the future of feminism is safe.

You're right Hully, from challenging sexism, rape culture, slut shaming and victim blaming they pick out the language. Ah well...

[WhoWhatWhereWhen]

boobs are only private by social convention yes, so are cocks and vulva and arseholes and i dont want to see any of them while i'm in Aldi, nothing to do with feminism

[EduCated]

But you only don't want to see them because of convention though. Imagine if ears were considered 'private parts' and you were horrified at someone flashing them in the street.

[namechangeguy]

So are people in favour of discarding this social convention? Would most of us be in favour of people being allowed to wear no clothes in public, if they so wished?

[WhoWhatWhereWhen]

Many things we do are done because of social convention that doesn't mean they are wrong.

I'd rather no one walked naked in the street.

[SatsukiKusukabe]

I care what people say not what words they use to say it. what your daughter's friends said (that a woman should expect harassment based on her wardrobe ) is fucking disgusting and I'd be ashamed if I were their parents,and potentially concerned if I were you. What your daughter said seemed wholly appropriate and the words of properly pissed of woman. And 17 is a woman and certainly old enough to speak her own mind in anyway she sees fit especially on FB. Honestly people, tell their 17year olds how to speak to their friends? No fucking wonder there are so many threads on mn about adult children who refuse to pay rent or leave home.

[EduCated]

No, I don't want people to walk naked down the street. The thought of a pair of bollocks gently flapping in the breeze as I go about my day.

However I can recognise that this is because of the time and place in which I was raised. If this were 100 years ago, we'd probably be having the same discussion about shoulders or ankles as we are about breasts. This is why I took issue with the assertion upthread that certain body parts are intrinsically and naturally more private.

[UptoapointLordCopper]

I don't mind if people choose to walk around naked. I won't myself, at the moment. Has anyone noticed the weather? I'm freezing with 5 layers on. Does anyone remember the man who tried to walk naked from Land's End to John O'Groat? He talked about the difficulty of walking when it's very cold.

[EduCated]

Actually, that's a point, I wouldn't hugely appreciate it. But that is my distaste which is personal to me, it is not something I would project onto the naked person and say that they are wrong, deserving of harassment or 'asking for it', which is essentially where this conversation has come from.

[dummad]

I was like her when I was 17. It'll get her nowhere unfortunately. Aggressive ranting will only serve to alienate her in the long run and I should know because it comes as naturally to me as going for a long piss.

What I have learned is that more wars are won through listening as well as talking and putting forward a consistent, rational argument in an articulate and calm way.

Otherwise you will be dismissed.

I think Nick you should praise her for her passion but you'll be doing her a BIG favour in tutoring her in the art of good debate. Otherwise her words will fall on ears that really don't care to listen. And what is the point of that?

[Lessthanaballpark]

Oh please! Since when did anyone listen to a nice polite happy feminist?!

[namechangeguy]

And who listens to the ranty ones? The daughter in the OP doesn't even identify herself as one. It is possible to be passionate and coherent.

[VerySmallSqueak]

I never even noticed the swearing until others pointed it out.

You are right to be proud Nicholas.

[Sunnywithshowers]

I think your daughter is great OP.

And how very unusual for a feminist discussion to be derailed into a discussion about the use of language and tone. Fuxache.

[namechangeguy]

We are discussing what she posted on FB, after the OP presented it to us. How is that derailing? Unless comment and discussion is to be abandoned and replaced with back-slapping and inane 'you go girl!' type-comments. I thought this place was a bit more sophisticated than that.

For example, some feminists find the use of 'c__t' as an insult to be sexist and demeaning to women. Is that not worth discussing?

[Sunnywithshowers]

namechangeguy I'm not expecting a unanimous 'you go girl' discussion. But I've seen so many feminist discussions derailed by critique of the speaker's tone or language, because it's 'unladylike' and feminists should be meek and they'd get on better.

I'm a feminist and I prefer the c word to other words for female genitalia, I don't see it as demeaning to women.

[VerySmallSqueak]

On a thread about it,yes,it is worth discussing name.

I'm not sophisticated,didn't know I had to be when I signed up.

I have been called a cunt so many times by men that I'm kind of unshockable now,so I can move past that to the point of the thread.

And the point is that I for one am impressed by the hope that this generation of up and coming women are unafraid to stand up and be counted.

[namechangeguy]

Well, that's fair enough Sunny, but I am sure you would agree that it is at least a bone of contention.

Also, there have been discussions on here recently about why feminism fails to connect with so many women. Questions are asked about whether it's the message, the tone, etc. Even the OP's daughter states that she herself does not identify as a feminist. So, perhaps, in this case the tone is relevant, given that it could come across as unnecessarily sweary. Maybe some people who read it might think 'that is too angry/aggressive for me'. The unladylike thing is a red herring. Teenagers of both genders seem to think that this language is acceptable in any given situation. I have had to have words with some of them in real life - sometimes I don't think they even realise they are doing it as it has become so commonplace. I am talking about 'nice' kids here too, not just rascals and tearaways.

[WilsonFrickett]

Suit the language to the message, I say. The fact that rape myths are still so prevalent in 2013, the fact that (presumably the men who were commenting were peers of Nick's daughter) 17 year old men still believe these rape myths - wasn't this supposed to be the generation that didn't 'need feminism', did they miss that memo? - I'd say that calls for the biggest, nastiest words at our disposal.

Fuck being nice. Be angry.

As a small business owner and as someone who used to recruit for a very large organisation, if I googled Nick's DD as a candidate and found this, it would put her up my list, not down. Unlikely to feel the same way about the people she was arguing with, though.

[namechangeguy]

A question for you, Wilson - can you easily access stuff that people post on Facebook, Twitter etc., in your former professional capacity? I always assumed this might be a bit of an urban myth. Does it just come down to personal security settings, e.g. public vs. private? Are there ways of circumventing this?

[SabrinaMulhollandJjones]

The swearing? You're all upset about the swearing?

You should be upset about this:

Cue two of her male friends who argued that women who dress in skimpy clothing are more likely to be harassed and sexually assaulted

Because the fact that these, presumably, young men believe (and will publicly argue) that women are to blame for their own sexual harassment/assault because of what they wear is far, far more outrageous than a few swear words.

My daughter is growing up in this culture.