sexual advances - the big question

[BramshawHill]

BBC the big question is currently discussing whether sexual advances should be accepted as a part of life.

The first speaker has said it weakens men and women if women complain about it every time, and that it IS a part of life.

Anyone else watching? Thoughts?

First time posting, hello btw!

Right Larry, so just to clarify your position: are you saying that everything is fine? Men should just carry on doing what they are doing because it would be unfairly penalising them to expect them not to approach women as they already do, just because a tiny and grumpy minority of women don't like it? And a pair of women out together obviously primarily socialising with each other will not get any unwanted attention? And when - on the vanishingly few occasions this does happen - a man makes a rude advance, it's ok, because it is generally accepted that the woman will loudly say "fuck off" and will not be badly treated in any way when she does so? and that this just is the case, no matter what any women, or any number of them, say to the contrary?

"Some posts on this thread show such a disconnect with real life that it is hard to know how to respond." They do don't they? Even after numerous women have come on and said what they dislike, the scenarios that are unwanted, the space and respect we would like. Yet still you want to encroach on those boundaries, larry. Why is that?

Curryeater,

You want me to put an overly simple set of rules up for you to critique. Given that I have already clearly summarised my position in my own posts, you wouldn't by any chance be "womansplaining" my own views for my erudition, would you?!

I have no idea of your experiences and, of course, I cannot empathise with a woman in the same way another woman can. I can, however, observe their reactions to things, and have over many years. It is not consistent. I have seen completely neanderthal approaches succeed in "pulling". I have also seen people highly offended. I think the middle ground is summarised in my post. To politely approach another human being is not impolite or wrong or in any sense "entitled". To not accept rejection with grace is clearly wrong. Where people grossly overstep the mark, it should be dealt with robustly, either by the law or the response, depending on the degree of it.

Can you honestly deny that many women go out of an evening with the intention of being bought drinks and chatted up? If not, then it cannot be wrong to approach a woman with that intention.

And I have nothing invested in this debate at all. I am not in the market and don't really go out to many late night bars these days. It is possible to have a view without being "personally invested" as you put it.

I am just astonished thinking about the reality of saying a loud "fuck off" to the sort of man who thinks it is ok to touch a woman uninvited. It is blowing my mind that someone (Larry) is so stupid that he has no idea of the implications of power occurring when a man sticks his hand on a woman's body; the threat implicit in this; how swearing automatically places a woman in the "not-nice, not to be protected or regarded" category for so many men; how so many paralysing influences are at work here - it is BLOWING MY MIND that Larry so breezily offers that as some sort of effortless solution.

However I am not going to talk to Larry any more because, you know, wtf, what is he getting out of this, why should I be a part of it, I am supposed to be working, I don't see why I should be giving him any of my valuable time

x-posted. bye Larry, not interested in you

I think it is pertinent too PQW.

Promqueen,

I actually think that is really interesting and did draft a reply but assumed it would just be derided without being thought about.

I think we have both put two mirror arguments, both of which have value. I think that is why there are no simple answers in social interactions between human beings. Clearly you have had bad experiences when men have annoyed you and wasted your time (and maybe worse). Equally, most of my female friends and my mother have never found dealing with the attention of men a troubling aspect of their lives when I ask them about it. They actually (in general) say that it is infantilising of women when they are unable to deal with it (I am not including assault or anything illegal in this). Now, your experiences and theirs are real women's experiences. What conclusion am I meant to draw? Are they all just conditioned by the patriarchy to accept the unacceptable, or are some too sensitive? I don't think there is one truth, by the way.

I'll wager that neither Lazzer or Dazzer have ever been put in the position that, for example, the women working with Rennard or the woman on the bus in SGB's post were put in. Otherwise they wouldn't be making such crass statements on this thread.

Not every woman can just shout "fuck off" at a man who is making unwanted advances to her. It's great if she can - but for many women a mixture of fear, embarrassment or simply social nicety can render you speechless and feeling helpless.

I have encountered the sort of situation "sandwich man on the bus" SGB described on many occasion - how many times have I ended up, often through politeness or embarrassment, having a strained conversation through gritted teeth with a man who is basically harassing me in public. I have wanted to yell fuck off and leave me alone many a time - but I would expect these people to take the social cues I'm clearly out by turning away, making no eye contact, clearly looking uncomfortable as "I don't want to talk to you". But they don't. Why is that?

Perhaps they are so completely unaware of anyone else's feelings other than their own "right" to go and talk to the pretty woman on the bus?

YY running.

Your post does sound like this, Dazz:

"Larry, , I'm afraid us two chaps will never make these sad and damaged ladies see reason and that they are wrong and we are right. So sad"

And yet we are women telling you what we feel about the subject in question that impacts directly on us, our daughters, mothers, sisters and friends.

Do you think that we are lying?

I have never ever ever met a woman that hasn't been subject to unwelcome advances in at least two of Lazz's categories. And that is women from all over the world of all classes and ages.

"I don't know of any woman, that I've had a discussion with, that has ever been troubled by strangers."

I'm actually amazed by this. Have you asked them directly? Can you instigate an informal survey where you ask them 'Have you even been hassled by a random man?' and report back?

Dazzler and Larry, You might want to read the point of view of 20,000 women instead.