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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

I suppose this proves that women just can't stand the heat.........

242 replies

seeker · 24/02/2013 10:23

here

OP posts:
AbigailAdams · 27/02/2013 13:08

And apologies Flora for speaking about you in the third person.

UptoapointLordCopper · 27/02/2013 13:18

Feminists are nice and fluffy in real life. We wait politely till our lords and masters have time for us to listen to our petty little grievances. While we wait we mop the floor and cook lovely dinners so that our lords and masters will be appeased and in the right mood to pay us undeserved attention. And after a hard day's work! How magnificent of them!

Sorry. Feeling a bit silly.

UptoapointLordCopper · 27/02/2013 13:18

Sorry again. A bit too silly. I mean magnanimous, not magnificent. But no doubt that as well.

FloraFox · 27/02/2013 16:22

No need to apologise, Abigail, I appreciate your input. Smile

exotic and dazzler both your posts are full of value-laden statements about people (and particularly women) with children who want to pursue senior posts and exotic has singled out a few jobs (including one which a number of posters, including me, have already said we have) as being "deadly boring". That's fine, that's your view, no-one condemned you as you expected to be condemned. How does your continual repetition and justification of your choice advance the discussion when no-one else wants to argue with you about it?

dazzler it's hard for me to believe you're reading this thread and you think I think my view is more important than exotic's. If anything she (and you) are being very holier than thou about your choices to live by your "values", but your choices, whatever.

Statements about men getting ahead because they don't tell other men what to think, which goes beyond the personal choice into a statement on structural / political and say it's women's fault they can't get ahead, cos they're all bitches. Yeah, haven't heard that before. I have no respect for that statement. If you come out with that sort of shit on any board, you can expect to be called on it.

dazzler I have a very different view on equality from you. I actually don't get the leap from believing woman should be equal to men but currently are not treated so (i.e. a feminist) to needing to be all fluffy kittens with any old thing said by another woman. That's a depressingly retrograde statement to make and I make no apologies for not conforming with your view of how a feminist should behave.

exoticfruits · 27/02/2013 16:36

I wasn't coming back but the Times today has an article-I can't link because you have to subscribe, but the relevant part is:-

But men behaving badly isn?t the reason why so few women go into politics in Britain. In France, where Dominique Strauss-Kahn still prowls, four are vying to become mayor of Paris. Yet fewer than a quarter of all MPs in Westminster are women and only one in six Cabinet ministers.
This is because it is an increasingly unattractive job, particularly if you are a mother. The first generation who made it to the top ? Barbara Castle, Margaret Thatcher ? either didn?t have children or sidelined them for their careers. Carole Thatcher says she communicated with her mother through her secretaries.
Parliament has slowly changed to accommodate families but not as much as parenting has altered. Women now expect to spend more time with their children. They are not prepared to miss crucial child-rearing years staring at Pugin wallpaper unless they feel that what they are doing is worthwhile.
Increasingly, it feels like it isn?t. Being an MP has become less interesting with more scrutiny but less significance. Ministers are ground down by the daily cycle of petty news stories; backbenchers find their jobs time-consuming but often unfulfilling. While they are expected to act as social workers in their constituencies and keep their heads down in the Commons, decisions are made by small, powerful cliques. It?s no wonder that a sixth of the 2010 intake of Conservative MPs have divorced or separated since they were elected.
Ruth Kelly managed to juggle four children with her job as Education Secretary. The Tory MP Louise Mensch combined being on a select committee with having three children. Both are resilient women and both quit. Neither mentioned sexism, but instead talked of tiredness and the impossibility of making both roles work.
Even the ballsy health minister Anna Soubry says she would find it almost impossible with a young family. ?There is too much pressure for MPs to live in their constituencies with little financial assistance any more to have their families near them. One friend would love to have her small child with her during the week but she would be condemned for moving out of her seat. We have to sort this out.?
Maria Hutchings, the Tory candidate in Eastleigh, had to move her family of six to a bungalow by the railway line to contest the seat. She is unpaid, and one of her children has special needs. She has had to sell her car and worries constantly about money while her husband commutes two hours to Essex each day to keep his job.
For most mothers, it wouldn?t be worth it, especially when they?re going to get pilloried by the voters. We should make it easier ? and this is where Lord Rennard has let women down. In his determination to prevent boundary changes, he helped to scupper Tory plans to modernise the Commons by having fewer, better-paid MPs. It is for that piece of political opportunism as much as any alleged personal failings that women should blame Lord Rennard

I can't see how things can change unless working practices are changed and childcare can be done differently. It is actually easier when the DCs are little, school makes it much more difficult because it is about education and not childcare.

Because of the age of my DCs I know a lot of young adults starting a career. It is the girls who are the switched on ones who know where they are going-and getting there. The problem comes when they want to have children-and see something of them.

I agree that we need to educate girls-I thought we didn't from my personal family experience-but it becomes obvious from reading MN, among other things, that we do.
However I think it sad that there is such a narrow tunnel of 'success'. A girl who is an A' student is not expected to have a career with the Early Years for example, even if it is her dream job. One who has a real vocation for nursing is told they need to aim higher.

There now seems to be a tremendous pressure for girls to succeed. If I was young today I would feel almost apologetic to say that I wanted to teach 5 year olds ,and beyond becoming a better teacher of 5 year olds , all my ambitions were outside paid employment.

I see that, to my sadness in my smart, switched on daughter- for example, they had an all day rehearsal for a school show on Sunday. All the girls turned up on time- the boys straggled in anything up to an hour late. The girls were exasperated and cross, but it was obvious that they just sort of expected boys to be flaky

While I agree that this is fairly typical not all boys are like that and they get deeply frustrated and can't do anything either. Even at University, where you would imagine everyone was motivated and wanted good results, my DSs have had tremendous worry as to who they would get in any group work-and heaved a sigh of relief when they have got a 'good' group. My nephew who was heavily into drama at school got driven to distraction by the example above-he couldn't change them either.

exotic it seems as though you braced yourself to expect people to condemn your choices?

I generally avoid feminist boards-they are not for the faint hearted-being called tedious is very mild! I thought that I was a feminist -but I seem to be the wrong kind. The worst was being told not to post at all. So yes-I was braced.

PromQueenWithin · 28/02/2013 09:25

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exoticfruits · 28/02/2013 11:47

Of course it is! I think that people misunderstand me!
FloraFox has skewed my words that men don't judge each other and that is why they get on at work! It wasn't connected to getting on at work but they don't judge each other- if I was to say something about someone else's choices to DH or DSs they would look at me as if I had 2 heads and say 'why are you bothered?' It wouldn't be up for discussion. That isn't why they get on at work!
She is also upset because I called her career boring, I was talking in general terms so looked back to see what she did. I'm sure it is fascinating to many but it would be a strange world if we all thought the same.
I am very lucky that my choices fit with the traditional female role. I worked out when I was about 5yrs that I was jolly glad to be a girl.
I am all for people fighting for change, and definitely for the unconventional. I may sound conventional on here but I am really veering on the eccentric in RL!
Unfortunately high power careers don't go with DCs. Once they have the basic human rights of roof, food etc the one thing they want is the attention and time of a significant adult. If granny, or the nanny or daddy are providing it they are the ones with the close relationship. DCs are not interested in quality time- they want time.
We have a corporate lawyer in the family- she is now a parter in the firm- has earning beyond my wildest imaginings. She is now nearly 50yrs and no DCs . She works all hours- if she had them she could go days without seeing them. Her DH has an equally high powered job and the life style suits them they have quality time with fantastic holidays etc but they both choose that - a child doesn't choose.
I don't have the answer- you can't have it all. A man won't get the close father/child relationship either if he has no time to be more than a distant figure.
My only point is that everyone should be free to make their own choices- yes you can aim for the sky, but it is equally valid to have other things for your personal success that don't include power, status and money.
One of my DSs goes for money in a career and 2 are not bothered- they are not right or wrong.
I agree that if women want to aim for the top it is difficult because people assume they might get off the lift when they are single minded.
I am all for having equal choice and opportunities.

PromQueenWithin · 28/02/2013 12:19

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FloraFox · 28/02/2013 15:07

exotic to be clear, I am not at all upset that you think my job is boring, not even remotely. I raised it because it seemed to me you were trying to pick a fight and/or being somewhat hypocritical by making value statements about others' choices while demanding not to be judged.

As for skewing your words, you said: "Men probably get on better because they don't tell other men what they should think". I disagree with this on every level.

skrumle · 28/02/2013 16:03

exoticfruits the OP didn't post about high flying international careers - she posted a link to a story about lack of representation from women in UK politics and "public life"...

appointments to public bodies tend to involve working 1-4 days/month. hardly the kind of pressure that would totally rule out someone with childcare responsibilities.

exoticfruits · 28/02/2013 17:01

OP was about women being under represented in positions of power and influence and there being very few women at the top of anything. Where we are talking different languages is that I am not talking about working women juggling home and career, I am not even talking about women in very good careers such as lawyer, doctor etc. I am talking about the very small selection of people at the top if their chosen field.
Historically it has been men, children were viewed differently and wives of successful men were not stuck at home, they had servants, a social life, good works if they wanted them or lovers if they wanted them. Children had nannies and saw their parents at their parent's convenience. When old enough they went to boarding school. When adults they were supposed to marry in a way that was advantageous to the family, in way of money, power, connections.
Now even the men want a home life, men and women marry from free choice. They want to see their DCs grow up and they don't want boarding school. It is all more difficult. Children want contact with a primary carer who has time for them. It is very difficult to work the hours demanded to get you to the top ( usually at the very time your DCs are growing up) and see enough of your DC who isn't interested in 'quality' time- just time.
Most men and women settle for juggling and not getting to the top.
I am talking 'in general' and only about the tiny percentage at the top of any chosen field.

My relative only got to be a partner in a law firm (as a woman from a comprehensive) by working all hours as required and never having to sort out ill children or attend school parent's evenings etc. She is now on a more reasonable footing but past child bearing age. I don't think she wanted DCs but it isn't the sort of thing you can ask.

exoticfruits · 28/02/2013 17:04

The appointment to public bodies where you work 1-4 days a month tends to be done by women who don't have to earn a living- their DH does it and they have good qualifications and time to spare.

exoticfruits · 28/02/2013 17:06

I meant that men get on better with other men because they don't have this sort of argument - not that they get on better at work. I can't see how it would possibly help. Confused

exoticfruits · 28/02/2013 17:34

If a man is left with the children because his wife dies or goes off and leaves the children he has to either change his job, working pattern or get full time, live in, childcare. If David Cameron were to be a widower he couldn't be PM and give his DCs the emotional support they need. He would have to very one track minded to carry on in the job.

skrumle · 28/02/2013 17:43

you clearly read a lot more in the OP's link than I did then. the guardian story was in the Women In Politics section and appeared to me to be about a discrepancy between britain and other countries in terms of improving the under-representation of women.

i also find this sentence: "The appointment to public bodies where you work 1-4 days a month tends to be done by women who don't have to earn a living- their DH does it and they have good qualifications and time to spare." pretty horrendous... the issue is that women are not doing these jobs, they are overwhelmingly done by men. the link from the OP actually contains this fact:
It provides a wealth of statistics on the extent of the continuing male monopoly on power. Two-thirds of public appointments go to men, 90% of chief constables and police and crime commissioners are male, and two-thirds of local councillors are male, yet men make up 49% of the population.

exoticfruits · 28/02/2013 19:08

A chief constable isn't something you do 1-4 days a week. I could quite easily be a local councillor -I have the time and the intelligence -I don't want to be.
I voted for the one woman who was a candidate for the police and crime commissioner. She was labour, I was most impressed and she was the only one to send me any literature or invite me to a meeting. However I am in a strongly Conservative area-their candidate would have got in whatever the sex-quite honestly if they were a chimpanzee they would have got in!! The turn out was very low anyway.
I am doing a volunteer thing at the moment-opportunities come up quite often that I do nothing about. If I was wanting to advance up a ladder it would be fairly easy.
I copied and pasted two articles from the Times on specifically why women are not in politics.

PromQueenWithin · 28/02/2013 19:19

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exoticfruits · 28/02/2013 19:34

I am quite appalled by the way we treat girls these days-I am glad that I don't have one. We should have advanced and yet it has gone backwards. When I grew up the boy/girl thing was far more divided and yet there was freedom. Although I was a 'girly' girl we didn't have a sea of pink. I like my dolls, but when I look back I spent most of my time outside on my bike, on roller skates, climbing trees and just out. We played all over the village, my mother had no idea where I was-there were no mobile phones-we just had to turn up for meals. We were mixed groups.
I would hate to be a teenager now. I was not attractive to boys being far too shy, but it didn't matter then.
Now the pressure is enormous to be 'perfect' with good looks, popular with boys, trendy, well dressed and good grades.
I think it is even more pressure to tell them they must aim high.
At primary school I loved learning for its own sake, it hadn't occurred to me that it was to get a good career-it seemed so far ahead that I couldn't see myself being old enough. Now ask any 5 year old why they are at school and they will tell you to do well and get a good job!
Why not just relax, think of mistakes as a way of learning, take risks, if you fail try again. Success is a wide variety of things to different people. You can change careers, it is never too late. Both my brothers messed around doing nothing much for quite a few years-one was in his 30s before he sorted what he wanted to do and one was in his 40s. Boys seem to still have the freedom to do this.
With all these years of feminism it is sad that teenage girls still feel that they must be attractive to boys as a measure of success.
It appears to be women doing it-they want girls as first choice-and they don't want ones who are keen on playing rugby and covered in mud!

exoticfruits · 28/02/2013 19:36

I have no idea really what a chief constable does but I would assume that it isn't a hobby-you need to be prepared to work and be available. If it only takes 2/4 days a week do we need one?

exoticfruits · 28/02/2013 19:38

A lot of girls opt out with mental health problems-they can't take it.

PromQueenWithin · 28/02/2013 19:42

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exoticfruits · 28/02/2013 19:48

In the first place I made a mistake-I should have written the 1-4 days a month which was what I was quoting. Maybe they can do it in 2-4 days a week-I don't really care -but I assume they would have to be on call.You couldn't have a big emergency and them say 'sorry I'm not available until next Tuesday!'

Dazzler159 · 28/02/2013 22:11

Seeing as you were talking about CC's I thought I'd have a look. It's not a 2-4 day job as you're the main focal point and need to be visible. Given criminals don't have a short working week then I doubt long hours are down to 'convention'. See here:

glostext.gloucestershire.gov.uk/documents/s16393/Application%20pack.pdf

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chief_constable

www.strathclyde.police.uk/about_us/force-overview/executive_team/chief-constable/

I am sure many people, myself included, have already decided that the pay to sacrifice ratio is rubbish and just not worth it. I realise I'm going to sound rather bad here (why change a habit of a lifetime) but I wouldn't want that level of responsibility for only £130k pa. You would have to either love the job or specifically want a lot of power/responsibility as there are many jobs that pay similar for a lot less aggravation (I know because I have one). The PM earns similar money and there's no way I'd even consider that job for pittance.

I can adjust my lifestyle to make up the £5-10k deficit. Rarely can you adjust a top level job so you don't miss out on your kids growing up. I couldn't care less about £5-10k (plus all the other monsense) but care infinitely about my family.

Ultimately it's about choices and us men are not immune to sacrifices either. I could rise higher and strive for power but that would mean giving up my family for some faceless company. My marriage would suffer and my relationship with my kids. I'd have no time of hobbies, exercise or anything else. I see it all around me with my friends. You don't get anything for nothing, whether youre male or female, and my guess is that some women look at their career map and simply choose life.

PromQueenWithin · 28/02/2013 22:25

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FloraFox · 28/02/2013 22:28

Since CCs don't work 24/7, a line has already been drawn around how much time they must work. In fact, I would guess that very few if any CCs work at night even though a lot of criminals do. Our working hours are set by convention. Why not work seven days a week or 16 hours a day? If a job requires more than 35 - 40 hours a week, that suggests to me that another person should be hired.