What do you all think about male circumcision?

[Zippy1111]

Please hear me out instead of dismissing this post as a "whiny MRA post"

To be more specific male circumcision done on baby boys and young boys for non-medical reasons?

I am personally against it for these reasons:

-The foreskin is a part of the body and everyone should have the right to an intact body

-Babies cannot give consent

-The foreskin is full of nerves. Removal means less pleasure from sex/masturbation. The glans of the penis eventually becomes desensitized after rubbing against clothing instead of being kept lubricated by the foreskin.

-Last Nov a baby boy in Manchester bled to death after being circumcised (for medical reasons)

If it is to be done, I believe it is best for the boy to make the decision for himself when he becomes old enough

[SolidGoldBrass]

All circumcision is wrong (except for medical reasons which are rare). It's one of the many reasons why I despise religion and don't tiptoe round the sensibilities of the superstitious. IF you think your imaginary friend has given you permission to mutilate your children's bodies, you are a primitive fucking barbarian and an idiot. Fuck your culture and your traditions, why should they be 'respected' any more than if they involved slave owning or human sacrifice?

[FastidiaBlueberry]

Oh SGB you do realise you'll probably get deleted for that don't you.

Not tiptoe-ing round people's religious sensibilities.

[seeker]

"Is it really necessary for everyone to choose between being a "feminist" or an "MRA"? Isn't it possible to be both?"

Nope. Because being an MRA means you have to believe profoundly anti feminist things.

[FastidiaBlueberry]

Are you for real zippy?

LOL at the suggestion that you can be a MRA and a feminist.

Feminism came out of the genuine, systematic injustice that patriarchy has inflicted on women for thousands of years.

Men's rights activism came out of some men seeing women clawing back a tiny bit of their basic human status from patriarchy and feeling that to be an attack on their basic human right to oppress women.

There is no comparison.

TBH I don't think you need to be a feminist or a MRA to be for or against male circumcision or FGM. Lots of people are against them for completely unrelated reasons.

And yes by the nature of things, no-one is wrong on everything. MRA's are right about male circumcision, it should stop. But they aren't right on the reasons it exists. Just as they are right about men being forced into gender roles they don't want to have - MRA's never take their analysis beyond a very superficial level, they whinge about the gender roles, without wanting to tackle the source of those gender roles - patriarchy.

[Daddelion]

What do MRAs believe that is profoundly anti feminist?
I've never met one or spoken to one.

[Sallyingforth]

I see no difference whatever between male and female circumcision.
No child should be forced to undergo any operation unless its required for medical reasons.

[AbigailAdams]

I agree Sallyingforth that no child should have to undergo either but to say there is no difference is really minimising millions of women's experiences.

[Trazzletoes]

Cailin uncircumcised boys can and do get infections underneath the foreskin. It's most common in under 5s and is called balanitis.

DS had it when he was 1. It's not usually too serious but his infection was bad and he needed iv antibiotics for a few days. It was most likely caused by a bit of poo getting underneath his foreskin when he had diarrhoea.

We were told that if it didn't clear up, or it happened again, the Doctors would recommend circumcision.

But I agree that it's wrong if its not medically necessary.

[seeker]

There is a difference between male and female circumcision. It is silly to say there isn't.

[Sallyingforth]

Yes they are different operations and I agree that the female one is more serious.
But I'm talking about the principle. Both are inflicted unnecessarily on an innocent child for the satisfaction of misguided adults.

[FloraFox]

The principle is not the same. FGM is done to reinforce the oppression of women as a class in certain cultures by removing their sexuality and has life-long impact on the health of the women affected. The vast majority of men who were circumcised at birth are unhindered in their enjoyment of male privilege as a result of circumcision and frankly couldn't give a fuck about it

[SolidGoldBrass]

I must admit, I wouldn't have thought the feminist board would be first port of call to discuss male circumcision and/or campaigning against it. Any more than the feminist board should be the first place to start a discussion or crusade in favour of veganism or anti-globalisation. There are lots of issues that lots of people care about, whether or not they are feminists, but the feminist board is specifically about issues which affect women.

[SigmundFraude]

A lot of men actually do give a very big fuck about it Flora, where did you get that idea from? Both FGM & MGM are unacceptable.

[FloraFox]

From the many men I know who were circumcised as babies. From the lack of any significant campaigning against circumcision by men who were circumcised as babies.

[Sunnywithshowers]

Zippy I'm interested in male and female issues, and I'm a feminist.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Female_genital_mutilation

"he WHO has offered four classifications of FGM. The main three are Type I, removal of the clitoral hood, almost invariably accompanied by removal of the clitoris itself (clitoridectomy); Type II, removal of the clitoris and inner labia; and Type III (infibulation), removal of all or part of the inner and outer labia, and usually the clitoris, and the fusion of the wound, leaving a small hole for the passage of urine and menstrual blood?the fused wound is opened for intercourse and childbirth.[4] Around 85 percent of women who undergo FGM experience Types I and II, and 15 percent Type III, though Type III is the most common procedure in several countries, including Sudan, Somalia, and Djibouti.[5] Several miscellaneous acts are categorized as Type IV. These range from a symbolic pricking or piercing of the clitoris or labia, to cauterization of the clitoris, cutting into the vagina to widen it (gishiri cutting), and introducing corrosive substances to tighten it.[4]"

Most, if not all, of these procedures are carried out with anaesthesia in insanitary conditions. Type III in particular can lead to infections, and infuries during sex and childbirth.

[seeker]

I am interested in men's issues. In men's health, for example.But MRA have views which I find unacceptable. So as a feminist, I believe it to be impossible to be both a feminist and a MRA.

[seeker]

And Dr Kellogg was a notorious fruit cake, so not a particularly useful ally for you., Zippy.

[Trills]

The current sexist world is bad for men and for women, in different ways and to different degrees, and also in different ways and to different degrees for each individual man and woman.

Men's health issues are interesting - being "manly" in the way that society expects generally involves "not making a fuss" and I've read that a large number of male health problems are exacerbated by male reluctance to go see a doctor (because it's not many to admit that you are not strong and well).

[TeiTetua]

I wonder if Zippy is American. Circumcision is so rare in Britain that most people don't think about it, and certainly there's no group except for the obvious religious ones where you could start an argument about whether it's a good thing--as shown by responses here. Whereas among Americans, it's good for a fight any day of the week.

What's more interesting is why he brought his question here, when Mumsnet has dozens of parenting-related groups to choose from, and one or two on sexual issues as well. So I'll say it again, I think he wants to get feminists talking about cocks. Other women wouldn't be as much fun for him.

[FloraFox]

zippy Kellogg invented cereal to stop men masturbating. Is cereal a men's rights issue? There is no meaningful comparison between cicumcision and FGM. If it affects men's sexuality in any material way it would have been outlawed centuries ago.

[Lessthanaballpark]

I definitely think that male circumcision is wrong. Not as wrong and disabling as FGM but still wrong.

Why is everyone being so snippy at Zippy (geddit?!). Do we have evidence to suggest that he/she has form?

FWIW IMHO Feminism is definitely about Mens Rights too. Feminism is a lovely happy thing where everyone gets a look in and is treated without prejudice. So if there's an area where men are neglected of course they should shout for their rights and I'll support them, as long as they shout for mine in return.

Although I'm not quite sure of the areas in which men have less rights than women. Probably in child custody, but that's a bit more complicated... hmm

Sorry I'm completely derailing this thread.....

I disagree with male circumcision. Full stop.

[TheDoctrineOfSciAndNatureClub]

Lessthan, I think it was the opening line of the OP.