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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Why ban page 3?

582 replies

jackburton · 12/02/2013 20:44

Hi, this is my first post, please be gentle :) . I'm looking for some thoughtful discussion on page 3 and the objectification of women, my wife suggested posting here. Any recommendations for good articles or feedback would be great.

My main issue with a lot of the traditional discussion on this issue is that there seems to be an implicit assumption of passivity and conformity in women that I can't really relate to as a man (or feel is present in many of the women in my life). I don't particularly worry about my son seeing body building or gay lifestyle magazines or other fetishised representations of men because I see them as part of a range of different types of lifestyle that he could adopt. I would think it quite alien that the occasional image of men in this way would significantly affect me (or him). In contrast, advertising and lifestyle magazines aimed at women seem to impose a very disturbing level of conformity and one that I feel would not be acceptable to most men. Frankly a lot of female targeted products seem to objectify (in the sense of judging purely by appearance) and be misogynist (in the sense of appearing to gain pleasure from and dwelling on the humiliation of women, particularly if their superficial appearance is non-conformist). In contrast most pornographic products aimed at men include a great diversity of female personality types, some are passive but many are not, Jordan being a classic example. They aren't treated as objects in the sense that their desire is critical to their appeal, sex dolls are relatively undesirable. While there is certainly some pornography and lifestyle discussions that appear to encourage pleasure in the suffering of women I feel this is in the minority with most magazines presenting their female models as stars who are the centre of attention and whose happiness and desire is an important part of their appeal.

My initial feelings about the campaign against page 3 is that these images are being judged assuming they were present in the kind of magazine targeted at women i.e. they are a conforming image and that they would lead to humiliation of those that didn't conform. I think the majority of male culture is not oppressive in that way. Personally I find mainstream female culture to be much more of a problem for women's liberation than these products. What am I missing?

OP posts:
nina17 · 21/02/2013 18:04

This reply has been deleted

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Lessthanaballpark · 22/02/2013 09:38

Zippy1111, I thought you'd been banned? Back again?

Lessthanaballpark · 22/02/2013 09:52

"Feminism isn't about giving the patriarchy a choice to continue itself."

Thanks Linerunner, that's exactly how I feel about a lot of "choice feminism".

Jackburton, in relation to Jordan and other women who have made a fortune out of their bodies being a role model, I would say ultimately these women are on very thin ground. Beauty is always held up as something women should aspire to but then we unfairly look down on women who use their "feminine wiles" as being manipulative and / or shallow. Look how much people hate Jordan.

Beauty is never put on a par with intelligence or strength, which are things that boys are directed to. It is amazing how early girls are taught the message that beauty is for them, whilst strength and intelligence is for boys. Just walk into a toy shop and you will see. It's not a fair choice at all.

That is why RS was a model and OP an athlete. It's also why people mourn the loss of his talent to the world rather than hers. You wouldn't know that she was a law graduate at the start of her career and a campaigner against domestic violence unless you had more of a passing interest because what has jumped out of the trash tabloids is her body and modelling career rather than the things her mind was capable of.

The day they get rid of Page 3 will be a happy day.

TheDoctrineOfSciAndNatureClub · 22/02/2013 09:52

TBF I don't think nina is Zippy. Though they might get on well.

Lessthanaballpark · 22/02/2013 10:09

Doctrine, no Zippy is Zippy! Zippy is the OP of the male circumcision thread, and according to a post from MNHQ, a previously banned poster who keeps coming back like a bad smell!

TheDoctrineOfSciAndNatureClub · 22/02/2013 10:40

Ooh, you're right - MNHQ must have missed some zippy posts!

PromQueenWithin · 22/02/2013 13:54

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

FrameyMcFrame · 23/02/2013 10:04

Really enjoyed reading this thread, I've learned a lot. I've also ordered the books too :)

StickEmUp · 23/02/2013 11:28

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Doesmybumlookbiginthiss · 24/02/2013 15:21

Evolutionary psychology would state that the page three girl is a ten and has the highest sexual market value. She is able to command most resources from men who objectify her for her beauty and health (ability to bear strong children). Likewise a mans sexual market value depends on ability to hunt and protect. Hence womens preference for athletic six foot high earning men. Women hate objectification of tens as it brings their own sexual market value into focus and makes them feel insecure, hence page 3 becomes a target. Men will always objectify women sexually and women have always used that to their advantage in procuring resources for their survival. The fact that we live in a post feminist world will never change that. The laws of nature and the survival of the human species dictate that slim women with full pert breasts will always be ogled at by men. Nature is a harsh mistress I'm afraid

FloraFox · 24/02/2013 16:41

"Evolutionary psychology would state" a load of old crap masquerading as science.

Doesmybumlookbiginthiss · 24/02/2013 17:02

"...a load of old crap masquerading as science."

Such a refined counter argument!..it appears you are unable to provide another reason why high status men prefer healthy young slim feminine women with full pert breasts in their mating strategies. So your only recourse is to call it crap. I'm afraid your ideology is no match for accurate observation of human behaviour.

As I said above, Mother Nature is a harsh mistress and doesn't care about your political idealogy.

FloraFox · 24/02/2013 17:12

I am able. Your argument is not worth the effort if it is based on "evolutionary psychology".

Doesmybumlookbiginthiss · 24/02/2013 17:15

Then explain why old fat ugly women don't get laid as much as young, slim waisted, pretty, big breasted ones then?

FloraFox · 24/02/2013 17:24

Not relevant to this discussion. Do try to engage brain and disengage penis for a moment, if possible.

FrameyMcFrame · 24/02/2013 17:26

The laws of nature???
Some of us have evolved a bit more than others I think

Doesmybumlookbiginthiss · 24/02/2013 17:28

Of course it is relevant, it is all about finding the best genes you can to reproduce...when are you going to provide an alternative hypothesis rather than just stating "not relevant" or "crap".

FrameyMcFrame · 24/02/2013 17:29

Men fancy page 3 models. No one's disputing that fact.

Why do the rest of us have to put up with it in a daily newspaper, that's the question.

Doesmybumlookbiginthiss · 24/02/2013 17:31

@FrameyMcFrame

You have evolved above nature then? Wow I bet that took some doing.

Bottom line is that nature doesn't care about our feelings. I know it is harsh but that is the reality.

Doesmybumlookbiginthiss · 24/02/2013 17:34

@FrameyMcFrame

Good point, I guess like all things...tits sell. I don't mind the Sun so much. PAge three is inside. It is the Daily Sport I hate as it is a porn mag on the bottom shelf with sexual pics on the front page. Young kids can see those. That is where the campaign should be

PlentyOfPubeGardens · 24/02/2013 17:34

So why can't we have a tall, athletic man flashing his wallet on P3?

Sunnywithshowers · 24/02/2013 17:34

How do you know that fat old women don't get laid?

Doesmybumlookbiginthiss · 24/02/2013 17:37

How do you know that fat old women don't get laid?

I never said they didn't...!

FloraFox · 24/02/2013 17:38

"when are you going to provide an alternative hypothesis rather than just stating "not relevant" or "crap"."

If you provide an intelligent hypothesis to the issue regarding page 3, which is not based on junk pseudoscience or ridiculous statements about women getting laid, I'll think about it.

Doesmybumlookbiginthiss · 24/02/2013 17:40

@PlentyofPubeGardens

Would it sell as much? Probably one for the Daily Mirror, traditionally started out as a woman's magazine. I guess you could have Fireman of the Month or summat!:-)

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