a question for the men here

[Mitchy1nge]

what makes you think you have anything of real value to bring to discussions about women's experiences and expectations?

obviously some men can make interesting contributions (although those sorts of men don't often announce themselves here) to some discussions but generally, on the whole, everything everywhere else is already pretty saturated in Male Voice so was just wondering where you got the idea from

I've developed fuckwit blindness. I think this was a beautifully simple thread that allowed people explain why, in their own words, they're not worth acknowledging.

at Narked.

Hey hulls

I am off now as DD is another to get a gold medal for her gymnastics (hooray)

I will assume that others notice that I I'll be temporarily absent and there is no point saying anything until I get back. Just kill time.

I am here, but I am off now for a minute as DD wants to ask me something. I'll be back later if that helps.

I'm back. Did you cope?

"I would also like to thank all the well-read, interesting, intelligent, amusing, eloquent, engaging and frankly brilliant posters who have discussed and engaged and answered posts on here.

Even though it may seem pointless that you are arguing with people who refuse to see the point, or to read what you have written properly, you have helped me to clarify in my mind the difference between the institutionalised and societal oppression of women that is misogyny, and the individual acts (or pockets of) of sexism or discrimination (in any direction).

So I thank you "

^^ This. I've learned so much from reading this section. I have so much respect for the women that post here, again and again, in the face of such incessant trolling.

Seconded/thirded ^^

Honestly, on top of what I have learnt on this thread, I have learnt, and internally digested so much over the last 3 years or so (been here longer but it took me a bit to find FWR)

Respect to you all (well, you know, not all of you, not the goady fuckers, but all you good ones)

I've learned that I can't be a feminist because I'm male. As Tortoise pointed out, women can see things from a male perspective because that's the default setting of society. So for men to come on here with their interpretation of what feminism is and should be is entirely wrong. We should listen and learn from them, not issue instructions, however well meaning.

I think.

I think I would just add that it is also a crying shame that so many feminists have been driven from these boards by said incessant trollery.

I wish they'd come back.

I am further confused by the fact that not one of the feminist men on here has said, "I said nothing when daddancer gloated about porn on the feminist board while I was here being a feminist man because...." and then given any kind of reasonable or plausible explanation.

This thread reminds me of Pulp's Common People.

Even if someone with privilege actually (not theoretically, but in rl) puts themselves into an under-privileged position, there are 2 reasons that mean they won't entirely 'get it'.

1. All those previous years of privilege will help them in many ways (attitude, health, education)
2. They will know that there is an 'out'.

And that second point is key - people whose entire lives have been immersed in lack of privilege/oppression, often do not even know that there are ways to escape/change etc. They are probably aware that other people have a different kind of existence, but they have no concept of that life being available to them. It takes a huge mental leap to see that they can change things, let alone know how to change them, and then to have the stamina to enact that change in the face of opposition.

Just one small example - if a man poses as a woman and then discovers that in work meetings their opinions aren't listened to as much, they get to see and have some insight into what it is like to have a silent voice. That still doesn't mean that they have any idea of what it is like to grow up in a world where their voice always has been and always will be heard less. That they have lived a life where they are talked over, ignored, shouted down, not called on in class, have their right answer ignored until a male says the same thing. That if they raise their voice they are called shrill, if they speak normally they are ignored, if they get frustrated they're called hormonal.

A man facing that situation will have the pre-knowledge that his opinions should be listened to, and the knowledge that he could come out of disguise and be listened to again. A woman would not have either of those assurances, and is likely to believe that her voice is less worthy. Even if intellectually she knows she should be an equal, she may well still believe that her voice isn't as worthy of being listened to. So. As well as experiencing the oppression, she is internally struggling with cognitive dissonance.

Which is why it is condescending for men to say 'I know how you feel' - because they don't. They can't. It's not their fault, but that doesn't mean that they do genuinely understand how it feels, what that life experience is. And they have to accept that. No matter how much they sympathise, they cannot replace an entire lifetime of experience with a few days/weeks/months of experience.

That is why, within the area of feminist discussion, they need to be listening to the best of their ability.

kickassangel - but that would mean that all women's experience is the same, and that all men's is too. I think it's more complicated than that.

"That they have lived a life where they are talked over, ignored, shouted down, not called on in class, have their right answer ignored until a male says the same thing. That if they raise their voice they are called shrill, if they speak normally they are ignored, if they get frustrated they're called hormonal."

I'm sure that a lot of women share this experience. I don't. I suppose I've been lucky. Does this mean I would not be allowed to comment on such things? Or would I be ok to, since theoretically I'm more likely to experience it than a man would be? Do you need personal experience to be allowed to voice an opinion?

Nicholas, I'd disagree with your second point there - unless you are a man, how can you see things from a man's perspective? Women are not treated in the same way as men, nor do they have the same experiences or opportunities as men. You can read stuff written by men, listen to what they have to say, appreciate it maybe. But you don't know what it's like to be one. Otherwise, it would be possible for men to come in here, read, digest, and thus become a feminist. Which is obviously not possible.

That said, do you think it is worthwhile posting? Not having a pop at you, but wondering what you can bring to the party?

that was just one example. there are plenty more. the point is that men just will not have experienced that at all ever, based on the fact that they are men. I doubt that you have never, in your entire life, experienced it. there are far too many studies showing how men control the bulk of converstion then report back that the women spoke too much, or that in school boys are called on to answer questions way more than girls are etc etc. You may not have noticed it, and it may well be that the closest men in your life don't do it, but I think it's likely that at least once in your life you'll have come across someone who attempted to shut you down verbally, and that it is likely that being female made them think it is OK to treat you lkie that.

kickassangel, I'm so glad I read your post before going to work tomorrow. I'll remember its sad wisdom when in a roomful of men I am trying to be heard. You express it so well.

that was to widowwoman btw.

name change - men can be part of the movement to ensure equality & liberty for women. what they can't be is female, and they need to see how that means that their contribution will be different within feiminism than it is elsewhere in their lives.

Kickass, I think the best thing men can do is back off and not hinder women's move towards equality. It's your fight, and only you will know when you have got there.

Well, they can also actively support the fight for equality

NCG, when you say you care less and less about the opin

NCG, when you say you care less and less about the opinions of people on here, what do you mean? Their opinions of you, NCG, or of feminism, or what?

No NC, you don't have to be passive. You can speak out but please make sure it is in support, not against us.

What happened with Pan that most of the male posters don't seem to be getting, is that by not speaking up, you appear to condone sexism. You were all asked why you didn't speak out and none of you seem to recognise that even here, even on a site largely used by women, your voices carry more weight with other men. Your male privilege affords you the opportunity to do something and to then have a man say 'sorry, can't be arsed' and from one who claims to support feminism, that was a huge step against women and particularly the ones posting. As women, we don't get the choice to be part time feminists. We have to deal with the fall out of calling out inequality each and every time. You all chose to take your male privilege and use it against us and the same privilege stops you from seeing that that was what happened and why it caused hurt and anger.

The rest of it, the taking offense that his manly pride was attacked, the telling of tales, was just rubbing salt into the wound. And still, men still don't seem to get it.

namechangeguy, I can imagine that 'backing off' and 'not hindering' is the same as standing around doing nothing while women fight on their own for equality.