a question for the men here

[Mitchy1nge]

what makes you think you have anything of real value to bring to discussions about women's experiences and expectations?

obviously some men can make interesting contributions (although those sorts of men don't often announce themselves here) to some discussions but generally, on the whole, everything everywhere else is already pretty saturated in Male Voice so was just wondering where you got the idea from

BTP I just burst out laughing at work there - in an open plan office. Not cool!

LRD,

Come now. She posted two completely opposing arguments within 10 minutes. When I juxtaposed the quoted and questioned them, I was called out for mansplaining. Of course, it is not quite so black and white. She has the classic Clinton legal get out of splitting tiny hairs cf "A BJ does not constitute sexual relations". However, she implied it was absolutely fine for blacks to discriminate against whites in areas where she did not have to go. Several posts later she claimed she never said it.

Sorry, curry, I missed your post.

That's really interesting what you say about 'balance'. I think I agree. It infuriates me that quite often people will assume 'compromise' is such an ideal (and womanly) virtue (because women are good at emotional stuff like facilitating compromises, right?). You can compromise on, say, how many people to invite to a party if you want 10 and your DH wants 30. You really can't compromise on theoretical views. You have to construct a new theory. That sometimes works but so often doesn't.

I find it helps to say ad hominem in the style of that Muppet song.

although I am sure that song is actually based on swedish porn music or something... (don't think I have made that up!)

I would have thought Rich needs to go in there.

I don't think I could convince a poor street sweeper he's in the most privileged group.

So it's Rich, White, heterosexual males.

'Which is the least oppressed demographic on the planet?

White heterosexual men.'

larry - I can't find the quotations you're referring to.

I didn't read her posts the way you did at all. She is not saying that it is 'fine' for blacks to discriminate. She is saying that black people do not have a huge amount of power over white people (in general), and therefore, any discrimination has limited effect.

It is exactly the same with women and men.

It seems a pretty obvious argument to me.

I may be misunderstanding, but surely it is much more important to concentrate on white people discriminating than on the minority of an oppressed minority who might be, in effect, kicking back?

If you can literally move neighborhoods to avoid oppression..it's probably not oppression.

"I may be misunderstanding, but surely it is much more important to concentrate on white people discriminating than on the minority of an oppressed minority who might be, in effect, kicking back? " that is true LRD. Discrimination done by the oppressed is often in reaction to being oppressed. If men weren't sexist there would be no sexism.

"If you can literally move neighborhoods to avoid oppression..it's probably not oppression." Another good point. Which does not negate the fact that it is not pleasant to have to move neighbourhoods but does recognise that you can.

"If you can literally move neighborhoods to avoid oppression..it's probably not oppression. "

Now there speaks unknowing privilege.

"I don't think I could convince a poor street sweeper he's in the most privileged group. " No he isn't. But he is more privileged than a female street sweeper or a black street sweeper (assuming you were thinking he was white).

Do you really believe that everyone can move at will; those in council housing, those on benefits, those in social housing, those who have children in local schools. Just relocate. ??

Yes you are probably right it is a bit of privilege speaking there. But the fact is that most neighbourhoods in this country are set up for and with white people, so there is still a lot more choice available.

Now there speaks unknowing privilege
now there speaks someone who has not a fucking clue.

and yy to AA's minority street sweepers

Actually larry, I have been nearly homeless on a few occasions, but yes in most cases, you can get up and move and I have done it many times. The people who have traditionally had it the hardest just usually have to move the furthest.

I still haven't found a place where being a woman has put me in a position of privilege.

Actually I will hide this thread now as I think you are getting just what you want.

Been great reading what some of the other posters have had to say and finding dd has been banned though!

Thank you for that post, feministe.

I am aware that I am deeply privileged and don't know what it's like to be economically fenced into a very deprived area and have no social or educational pathway out of there. I've got to hold my hand up to that bit of privilege.

I didn't realize many Cambridge graduates were in that situation, but I imagine it is doubly difficult to gain such an intimate, personal knowledge of dispossession after being so privileged initially.

Forgive me, because as I say I am definitely privileged here - but I do feel, larry, that perhaps your perspective here is a little different from people who have truly lived with that sort of lack of privilege all their lives, and not been educationally privileged as you have?

I have to say, I do not think that it is comparing apples with apples. A minority of white people will ever experience even the most casual 'racism' in the UK. I doubt the same can be said of black people.

Please excuse me if anyone reading thinks it's out of turn for me to say this.

feministefatale

I still haven't found a place where being a woman has put me in a position of privilege.

Isn't that part of the thesis behind womanism, though?

I believe there is some misandry. Not seen much of it ever.
I'm sure there's some sexism against men. Difficult to find convincing examples of it.
I believe there are some false rape accusations. A tiny miniscule proportion of those rapes that aren't reported, and a tiny proportion of those rapes that are reported and not acted upon.

In the same vein, I'm sure there may be some issues for men. However, how anyone can seriously believe that discrimination against men in general is either a) such a problem or b) appropriate for a womens_rights area is pretty odd, really.

'"I don't think I could convince a poor street sweeper he's in the most privileged group. " No he isn't. But he is more privileged than a female street sweeper or a black street sweeper (assuming you were thinking he was white).'

That must be a hell of a consolation.

See your female coworker.

You're more likely to die earlier than her.
You're more likely to commit suicide.
You're more likely to be assaulted or murdered.
You're more likely to be homeless
You're more likely to be an alcoholic or drug addict.
You're more likely to lose contact with your children after a relationship breakdown.

Feel privileged?

Rich male privilege I can see, general male privilege I don't buy into it.

And what I really don't get is your sons are going to grow up in this world, privileged nah.

Misandry doesn't exist.

If misogyny exists, and you admit it exists, then logically, misandry cannot also exist - not unless you think there's a race of aliens who discriminate against all of us, and then we can just call it mis-humanism.

Misogyny is the term for institutionalized oppression of one sex. If it is institutionalized oppression, it could not co-exist with institutionalized oppression of the other sex as well. IMO.

The threads called a question for the men.

fastidiablueberry know it's moved on, but just had time to read your Carey Purcell link, really interesting, thank you.

I thought misogyny meant "hatred of women" in a similar way that misanthropy means "hatred of people"? Or have I been reading the wrong dictionaries?

For that matter I thought patriarchy covered "institutionalised oppression of one sex".

Going back to something OneMoreChap touched on, I suspect most situations where there is anti-male sexism - eg, in certain child care/custody issues - a lot of that sexism is rooted in our patriarchal society's biases. But I'm sure I'm not saying anything revelatory in that.