Joanna Lumley says don't go out and get drunk...

[JustAHolyFool]

...to avoid being raped.

Daily Mail link, but it's all over twitter too.

link

Don't read the comments unless you fancy some RAAAAAGE.

Reading this made me think of the Diane Wiessinger article "Watch Your Language" it's about how we talk about breastfeeding and how women seem to be designed to feel guilty. She talks about the differences in the responses from men to women about their role in a hypothetical plane crash...

"Guilt is a concept that many women embrace automatically, even when they know that circumstances are truly beyond their control. (My mother has been known to apologize for the weather.)

Women's (nearly) automatic assumption of guilt is evident in their responses to this scenario: Suppose you have taken a class in aerodynamics. You have also seen pilots fly planes. Now, imagine that you are the passenger in a two-seat plane. The pilot has a heart attack, and it is up to you to fly the plane. You crash. Do you feel guilty?

The males I asked responded, "No. Knowing about aerodynamics doesn't mean you can fly an airplane." "No, because I would have done my best." "No. I might feel really bad about the plane and pilot, but I wouldn't feel guilty." "No. Planes are complicated to fly, even if you've seen someone do it." What did the females say? "I wouldn't feel guilty about the plane, but I might about the pilot because there was a slight chance that I could have managed to land that plane." "Yes, because I'm very hard on myself about my mistakes. Feeling bad and feeling guilty are all mixed up for me." "Yes, I mean, of course. I know I shouldn't, but I probably would." "Did I kill someone else? If I didn't kill anyone else, then I don't feel guilty." Note the phrases "my mistakes," "I know I shouldn't," and "Did I kill anyone?" for an event over which these women would have had no control!

The mother who opts not to breastfeed, or who does not do so as long as she planned, is doing the best she can with the resources at hand. She may have had the standard "breast is best" spiel (the course in aerodynamics) and she may have seen a few mothers nursing at the mall (like watching the pilot on the plane's overhead screen). That is clearly not enough information or training. But she may still feel guilty. She's female."

So are you saying women feel guilty for being raped because it is innate confuseddotcom . Rather than the thousands of messages women receive on a daily basis that they are to blame, you mean?

Tanya Golds take on it from the Guardian.

www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2013/jan/25/joanna-lumley-foolish-rape-drunken-feet

a women should not be raped because of what she is wearing or that she is drunk etc

it also should be safe to leave my house unlocked , my camera in my car , my laptop, in a case etc, but the world is not perfect I would get very little sympathy for having anything stolen from an unlocked house even though anyone would know it was not their's to take and leaving a door unlocked is not an invitation to help yourself, most theft is opportunistic, unfortunately so is most rape, some is carefully planned with intent

so in an imperfect world we have to take care of ourselves and our possessions,
I lock my house, my car do not leave my purse on top of my bag, do not flash my blackberry around, I do not get that drunk

it is sensible advice for anyone (male or female) not to get so drunk they do not know or remember what they did or said, to not have money to get home, did not someone die last week in the snow walking home drunk with inadequate clothing and being found in a garden 3 doors away from home?

in the state of being that drunk if you had no money you would not know whether your purse had been stolen or whether you had just carelessly dropped it, neither could you be sure whether you had told someone your PIN for your card, so you leave yourself vulnerable to many different crimes or possibly not a crime but your own carelessness and stupidity

giving sensible advice does not make you a rape apologist, I would tell my own DD the same she is only 3 now but later I would say the same that you need to know what you are doing at all times because if you are drunk someone can easily say well actually you did say yes or you did give me PIN or say i could have your phone etc etc, when drunk your memory is often faulty or missing so it would make the accusation of being unreliable witness very easy in anytype of crime

That glosswatch piece is really strong.

Sorry I would agree with sarahtigh here, we know there are men out there that will rape, it is wrong but it is also a fact. If you know that you are at risk at the best of times you should take precautions. It is all very well saying men shouldn't rape. People shouldn't murder, rob, assault as well but just saying they shouldn't isn't going to stop them. Telling my daughter she shouldn't be careful because men shouldn't rape? Not going to happen, always make sure you have money for a taxi, always have credit on her phone to call for a lift if there is a problem getting home, don't take short cuts.

Alcohol consumption greatly increases the risk of being a victim of violent crime. This is a simple statement of fact.

If JL hadn't used the word rape then no one would be batting an eyelid at this very sound advice.

However as soon as the word is used we get the usual cries of 'apologist' and 'blame'.

Its a shame really because it really is good advice.

Sarah, Sausage, what I'm waiting for is some statistically sound evidence which shows that curtailing my life in certain ways will actually make me less likely to get raped. The vast majority of rapes are aquaintance rapes (as I said upthread, my two close calls were of this sort), women get raped in taxis, out jogging, walking home from school or college, within marriage. Why single out alcohol? (I totally agree that binge drinking probably isn't the wisest of ideas for other reasons - it sends the chances of you accidentally injuring yourself sky high and will shag your liver if done long term). Are you going to suggest that women shouldn't go out jogging? Or attending lectures? Sarah, what would you say if I said you were being desperately irresponsible telling your daughter to get a taxi in the light of the John Worboys case? (I wouldn't by the way, just a hypothetical line of argument).

And the downsides of giving this advice is it sends rapists the message that it isn't really entirely their fault, after all the woman was drunk, and who would blame someone for putting their hand in an open biscuit tin and helping themselves... (yes, I think they really do dehumanise their victims to the extent that they'd think this was a valid analogy - I don't, by the way). And it sends juries the message that there's such a thing as contributory negligence, so they decide not to convict. And it makes the victims feel so guilty about their behaviour that they can't start to move past the trauma they've experienced by talking about it (read the whole thread if you think I'm kidding about this one). And it's deeply insulting to the vast majority of men who are decent and who'd do as the friends of one poster upthread did - put her to bed to sleep it off and retire respectfully to a different bed.

Here we go:

www.ias.org.uk/resources/factsheets/crime.pdf

And again, the only people using the word 'blame' are those accusing JL of being a 'rape apologist'.

The fact is, even if you argue that telling women to take sensible precautions in order to avoid being the victim of a violent crime is reasonable, what is totally offensive is that the balancing advice - to potential perpetrators not to get so drunk that they might rape a woman - is lacking.

Where is the advice for men to make sure that they don't rape women?

I wouldn't have such a problem with these constant urgings of women, the potential victims of rape, to curtail their freedom to avoid it, if men, the potential perpetrators of rape, were as frequently being urged to curtail their freedom lest they rape women by exercising their freedom to go out and get drunk.

Especially given that most reported rapists have consumed alcohol before they raped and most victims are sober. It makes much more sense to tell men not to drink in order to avoid rape, rather than to tell women that.

'Violent crime' certainly does include those with a sexual element including rape and sexual assault. The IAS document is a good starting point if you're genuinely interested in the subject.

And again, the only person using the word 'blame' here is you.

BeanieStats are you content that the whole of public messaging around the issue of avoiding rape, is targeted at women, the potential victims, rather than at men, the potential perpetrators?

Is this OK in your eyes?

rape by complete strangers when out jogging etc is relatively rare,

taxis are not irresponsible as 99.99% of the time they are safer than walking home alone in the cold, wet or even in the dry, so though on the odd occasion it maybe wrong it is still the best, like wearing a seatbelt in car is best for safety though in the odd case of plunging into river in car or similar the seat belt is a hindrance as takes longer to escape but on that basis you would not advise non seat belt wear, similarly the warboys case would not merit non use of taxis

advising precautions is not victim blaming, it is 100% the fault of the thief and it is theft if laptop disappears from the back seat of my car, however if I had locked it in the boot the crime would probably not have happened

while in case of stranger raping jogger probably nothing would have made her safer but in the case of falling over drunk teenager being "helped home" then raped by friend of friend on her own, the crime may have been avoided if she had stayed relatively sober and with her friends, this does not make her to blame for crime it is still a crime but some precautions may have been better for herself.

of course men can be raped too, in fact they are more likely to be mugged than women

There are two taxi drivers in my area who are at best... a bit dodgy.
Ive had one question me about my sex life and this was NOT after a night out. This was in the daytime after id got a taxi off the rank after doing the weekly shop.
Second one is a mysogynist and displays it in a really vicious way (talked about how tight he is with money amongst other things and im really uncomfortable in the back of his cab. And he was moaning about how hard done by he is because his wife fled to a refuge!
I did have a thread on here about the first driver i mentioned here. I think it was under my old username.

My old taxi thread from last year.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/a1457891-Am-i-over-reacting-by-feeling-unconfortable-about-this

As I've said before, if not drinking alcohol, dressing soberly and not going out without a male protector made any difference then rape incidence in say Iran would be somewhat lower than it is here. I don't believe it is.

MP says wearing high heels put you more at risk of attack...

www.thisisgloucestershire.co.uk/Gloucester-MP-said-wearing-high-heels-puts-young/story-17970420-detail/story.html

"You misread me Beanie. Alcohol consumption increases the risk of non-sexual violent crime. You are claiming a falsehood as fact."

No. For the second time, alcohol consumption dramatically increases your risk of being involvement (as in both being the IP and assailant) dramatically. In this violent crime is defined as "All violence against the person, sexual offences, and robbery".

The definitions and data backing this up is published here: www.homeoffice.gov.uk/publications/science-research-statistics/research-statistics/crime-research/hosb1011

More alcohol specific number crunching is here:
www.ias.org.uk/resources/factsheets/crime.pdf

The involvement of alcohol in violent crime is well known and well understood. It may be inconvenient for your argument but avoiding the consumption of alcohol (and in particularly excessively so) will reduce the likelihood of you being a victim of violent crime, which does include rape and sexual assault.

Sorry, but thems-the-facts.

More generally, I don't agree that the "public service" style advertising in the UK is directed towards victims and their behaviour. All police forces all under a major drive to reduce the incidence of alcohol related crime and all have conducted similar programs to this one

www.northumbria.police.uk/campaigns/plan_to_stay_safe/stay_incontrol/

where the message is very clearly that excessive alcohol consumption puts you at risk of involvement with the police both as a victim and criminal.

Being involved in a reported, recorded, violent crime maybe. A stranger violent crime. What some would see as a "real" rape or a real assault.

The majority of women are not raped by strangers and the majority of women do not report it.

But if you're talking about what rape myths consider to be "real" rape then you are correct.

Just of fuck all relevance to the realities.