Joanna Lumley says don't go out and get drunk...

[JustAHolyFool]

...to avoid being raped.

Daily Mail link, but it's all over twitter too.

link

Don't read the comments unless you fancy some RAAAAAGE.

[ubik]

victim blaming - in the context of rape it is not the victim's fault, it is the perpetrator.

but i do think people should take responsibility for themselves far more than they do

when you drink to excess so that your judgement is skewed you have to accept some responsibility - that goes for men and women.

When i was a teen, hanging around in some rather unsavoury parts of london always wore shoes i could run in, i was always warm enough and had enough money to get home. this was in the days before mobile phones, it's taking responsibility for your safety, using your common sense.

I can see both sides of the issue, but Joanna Lumley was making a fair point, I think and calling her a 'rape apologist' is rather extreme.

[LRDtheFeministDragon]

Take responsibility for what, though?

It just seems to me that, well, sex without consent is rape. You can't 'take responsibility' for being raped.

I do think it is different from, say, taking responsibility because you got very drunk and walked over a railway line, or stepped into the path of a car. Those things, even if you are very, very drunk, aren't anyone else's fault. They're your responsibility.

[OneMoreChap]

TheJoyfulPuddlejumper Fri 25-Jan-13 12:06:36

But OMC the only way to avoid being raped is to not encounter a rapist.

Truism. How is that different from 'the only way not to get robbed is not to encounter a robber'.

As I said "Robbers rob; but you do what you can to lessen the likelihood"... Everyone stepping out of an alley behind me is a potential robber.

The fact I'm not walking where I can easily be grabbed, look aware and am to some extent coded up makes the chance of that potential robber becoming my actual robber somewhat less.

Yep, they'll rob someone else.

[LRDtheFeministDragon]

OMC, when you get robbed, and you go to the police, do people routinely say 'well, you really must have intended to give them your stuff! I bet you enjoyed it. In fact, I'm not even sure you didn't deliberately walk down that alley in the hope of being robbed.

What, you say it's your ex-partner who did it? Well then, that doesn't even count as robbery. It's well known men lie about being robbed all the time.'

The point I am trying to make is, this all happens within a context. You don't mind the idea of someone telling you to 'take responsibility' for being robbed because to be honest, no-one ever seriously implies that people secretly want to be robbed, or that robbers are not really criminals to blame for what they do.

[OneMoreChap]

LRD no, and far fewer people ever pollute the press than used to.

and when did police/courts/media last say the equivalent of
well, you really must have intended to give them your stuff! I bet you enjoyed it. In fact, I'm not even sure you didn't deliberately walk down that alley in the hope of being robbed for rape. I must read the wrong papers/know the wrong busies.

You don't ask people to take resonsibility for being robbed. You ask them to lessen their risk.

[catladycourtney1]

The problem when people write articles like this aimed at young women, is that it's not just young women who are reading them.

Recommending that women not go out and get so shitfaced that they end up alone and unable to look after themselves, in skimpy clothes and unpractical shoes, because it can make them more vulnerable to attack, is pretty sound advice. However, men are also perfectly capable of picking up a newspaper or magazine or switching on the television, seeing these warnings, and potentially internalising the message that it is okay to attack a woman who is vulnerable in such a way.

[HighJinx]

Surely, the issue is OneMoreChap that if the focus is constantly on how to keep yourself safe rather than how to stop the perpetrator committing the crime then the blame begins to shift.

So you get raped and it is your fault for not being vigilant enough or for dressing in a certain way etc etc. As if the rapist (or robber in your example) couldn't have been expected to just not actually commit the crime.

[TheDoctrineOfSnatch]

I wonder if we changed the phrase from rape apologist to rape explainer, it would be clearer what it meant?

I have been drunk and in a nightie sharing a bed with someone I'd just met at a friend's party. I've had dinner, wine and gone to bed with someone I was on a blind date with. I've shared a bed with a male friend who I used to have a FWB relationship with. In none of those situations did penetration occur and only on the blind date did anything physical happen, which was with my happy consent.

In all of these situations I was much more potentially vulnerable than a woman who is out for the evening, dressed up and pissed. I wasn't raped because none of those three men were rapists.

[ubik]

I think it's an issue that's easy to get caught out on - we know the point - that rape is not the fault of the victim...

...and yet if one of my daughters phoned from a street in the middle of town at 3am in january with no money to get home having spent it all on booze then i would be furious. And one of the reasons i would be furious is because she may be attacked, god forbid raped, because she is vulnerable and i want to do everything in my power to protect her from that. i know it's contradictory, i know it is illogical, if it did happen, all my anger would focus on the attacker - but those protective strong feelings, that she shouldn't make herself vulnerable are there

I guess we cannot totally separate ourselves from the messages given out by society about women and their vulnerability/sexual availability

[confusteling]

My sister was sexually assaulted. She was in a taxi at the time, in school uniform, and the perpretator was also a school pupil. She was also assualted by a friend's DD - they were no older than 6 at the time.

I was sexually assualted, during school, in the playground and during PE lessons.

A classmate was raped. She was merely walking down the main road, at 6pm, in the winter. She was thirteen and stone cold sober. DSis and I were approached by the same man, in the garden - we weren't drunk.

A friend was raped. She was sober and was raped by her father's friend.

My mum was raped. She was sober and had gone home with a chap after a party for a cup of tea.

My aunty was raped. She was sober.

I've worked with teenager girls who were raped and/or assualted. Most of the time it's a boyfriend who's forced them into having sex, a family friend or relation, a peer, or a date rape. It's unusual from experience for it to be a man attacking a drunk woman; it's vulnerability that's the factor I think but in order to not be vulnerable one would have to avoid a lot of situations not just going out drinking etc.

[LRDtheFeministDragon]

OMC -no, you're not reading the wrong papers. In fact, I wish I could read the ones you do.

Google Akin, if you want to know more about how some people think about rape. I don't recommend it, though.

cat - that is so true. Not thought of that.

doctrine - I don't know if it would be? I mean, there's nothing wrong with explaining rape and to argue against it might sound like going back to the old 'ssh, don't talk about the shame' thing. I think 'apologist' works because it is an explanation directed to one side of the issue.

[PrincessFiorimonde]

Well, we all should 'take responsibility' for ourselves in the sense of not trying to walk across a busy motorway, or go for a naked swim in the Arctic Ocean.

But in what sense is it a woman's 'responsibility' for being raped?

[TheDoctrineOfSnatch]

Ubik yes it is hard to rationalise the fear when the messages are so strong.

[Skyebluesapphire]

I agree that women should make themselves safe. My DD is only 4yo, but if she was a teenager and going out, I would advise her not to drink too much so that she is aware of what is going on and to ensure that she always puts money to one side for a taxi

Nobody asks to be raped by what they are wearing or what they are doing, but it IS only common sense to not get so drunk that you don't know what you are doing and that applies to men and women.

[TheDoctrineOfSnatch]

Yes, Kim, he is, just as if he gets drunk and punches someone or if he gets drunk and gets in a car or gets drunk and breaks a window.

[LRDtheFeministDragon]

Yes, he's to blame.

You can be to blame for things you do.

You cannot be to blame for not consenting to sex and being raped.

[Greythorne]

Well, apologies, as this is not the first time I have posted this, but I think it has never been more apposite:

Don?t go out and get drunk, it could lead to you getting raped. Also, don?t have sex with someone because it could get you raped by someone they know. Don?t be young, that could definitely get you raped. While we?re at it, especially don?t be a child, that could really get you raped. Don?t be older either, that can get you raped. Don?t be living in a nursing home; women get raped there. In fact, what are you even doing in an establishment like that, are you asking for it? Don?t be single; single girls are sluts. Sluts get themselves raped. Don?t be married either or you could get raped by your husband. Don?t go jogging, that is just irresponsible. Don?t go to carparks, that can get you raped. And really don?t go jogging in a carpark, that is like so going to get you raped. Don?t go to public toilets, that can lead to rape. Don?t be dying; dying women get raped. Don?t ever be unconscious for any reason whatsoever, you?ll get yourself raped. Don?t be injured either. Raped. Avoid being physically disabled. Raped. And particularly avoid being intellectually disabled. You couldn?t get yourself more raped. Don?t go out alone, that is dangerous and you could get raped. But don?t accept lifts either; that is just asking for trouble. Don?t ever be naked, it could get you raped. Don?t wear clothing in which I could imagine you naked, that could get you raped. Don?t wear short skirts, they attract rape. Don?t wear baggy clothing or pyjamas or hospital gowns or a hijab either, women get raped in all those too. Don?t have a father, brother, uncle or grandfather. You could get raped by one of them. And oh my god, don?t even think about having a step-father. So raped. Don?t be ugly or you could deserve rape. Don?t be beautiful, you will be too tempting. Don?t flirt with men, this can get you raped. Don?t be rude to men either ? playing with fire. Don?t take public transport. Raped. Don?t drive your own car, what if someone hid in the back seat, you could get raped. Don?t sell sex or anything close to it. Raped, raped, raped. Don?t be mistaken for someone who might sell sex. Obviously, you would get raped. Don?t be a soldier, a waitress, a teacher, a police officer, or a hairdresser. All these women can get raped, sometimes by their professional colleagues. Don?t dance, it could lead to you getting raped. Don?t relax, what if it made you look like you wanted it. Don?t be stupid, that will surely get you raped. Don?t be naive, you?ll deserve what comes to you. Don?t be adventurous, that is being stupid and stupid women get raped. Don?t be silent, who can be expected to know you didn?t want to be raped. Don?t be intimidated, that can signal weakness and will get you raped. Don?t be trusting, don?t be in awe, don?t be flattered by anyone ? that could so get you raped. Especially don?t be female, that could really get you raped, although being male could get you raped too, so don?t do that either. And don?t be interesex or trans, people will think rape is for your own good.

It's from blue milk here