Not sure if this is the right place, but something occurred to me today - <tentative>

[LizaTarbucksAuntie]

I saw a quote this morning from Mary Phiper saying 'Young men need to be socialized in such a way that rape is as unthinkable to them as cannabalism'

Ok, I have a 'friend' who gets very agitated when I talk about rape being unacceptable and make any statements about violence against women on the basis that I don't qualify every statement with 'and it happens to men as well, and that's really shocking and upsetting' (paraphasing there..)

So this powerful quote got me wondering if we don't talk about violence to men because it's more unthinkable and that somehow it's acceptable for women to be subjected to violence? I'm not entirely sure if I'm making myself clear here or if I'm stating the bleeding obvious or just off an a random flight of fancy - grateful for (gentle) guidance please.

Thanks

Violence towards men is very much talked about but they're at much less risk of sexual violence.

Crimes against young men (beatings and muggings) are the most common crime and you will often see people on the teenagers section taking about their sons being mugged.

I think in the case of the person I'm talking about she means violence carried out by women - I wasn't very clear.

thank you

Well in that case I don't understand your second paragraph

In it your talking about 'rape' and violence against women and she comes back with ? Women are violent too?

Sure, women are prosecuted for domestic violence too - but in far smaller numbers and 2 women a week are murdered by their partner. If its about numbers they speak for themselves.

I'm not trying to be confusing I promise, I'm sort of trying to learn the arguments so I can hopefully defend my point of view more effectively and probably starting in the wrong way.

I work on the basis that the numbers speak for themselves but get told that unless I accept that violence and rape against men is of equal importance my point is not valid.

Really grateful for any pointers on where to start reading/researching/learning, thanks

I think you can acknowledge that violence against men is of course just as important as violence against women, while insisting that it is not so widespread and that is received very differently within the cultural context; is horrifying and unacceptable, whereas women are quite often seen to deserve it or to have provoked it.

I think that's absolutely true - when it's sexual violence against men, we don't talk about it as much and it is seen as far more shocking.

I think as well, people are less likely to talk about 'grey areas' with male rape, too.

Is that to do with it being 'acceptable' for women, what with us being the weaker sex and men being all strong and all?

Do we not talk about it because it's more shocking or do we find it more shocking because it's not discussed?

Thanks again - I think I'm getting to the point of what I'm trying to understand

I think both.

Violence against women is eroticised and presented as entertainment - how many detective stories are about women being murdered? The sight of men being stalked, terrified and murdered for our entertainment is not a common one, but the sight of women being so, is very common. So the consciousness of violence against women is very high -there's probably a plotline on the TV about it in some kind of programme every night - coupled with total unawareness of the extent of it in normal life (1 in 4 women being raped or sexually assaulted, 1 in 4 living with chronic DV, sexual harassment being a regular occurrence etc).

Plus the sub-conscious idea that women are there to be fucked, while men aren't. So a man being fucked against his will, is a human rights breach, while the same happening to a woman, is just her being used for her proper function.

Thank you, that's really helped.

I work in a sector where I'm often supporting survivors of DA. The stats (and I'm not a fan of stats of any kind, however, these are used for training purposes) say that abuse against men, where the woman is the perpetrator only accounts for 1 in every reported case of DA.

I think what you're asking is, is it more deviant for women to be the perpetrators of DA? If so, then my answer would be, yes. Just like its more deviant for women to commit criminal offences.

Society dictates that women who commit offences (including common assault) are deviating from societal norms.

HTH

Sorry 1 in 1000

itsallinmyhead That's not quite what I'm asking but the stats are very useful. I'm asking why is it more deviant and do we find it more shocking because it's deviant or vice versa.

It's more deviant because men are socialised to be more violent than women.

Violence is what underpins power-relations in patriarchy.

The most violent men have managed to assert their will by violence and then told everyone else that they don't have the right to use violence because it's wrong.

We're more shocked by it because it's more unusual. A violent woman is perceived to be not just breaking the law, she's breaking the idea of what it is to be a woman. A violent man OTOH, is not transgressing any iea of masculinity by being violent, he's just breaking the law.

It's chicken and egg - women are less violent because they're socialised to be less violent and so we punish them more when they step out of line by showing anger and so they're less likely to show anger and so we're more shocked when their anger is expressed in violence etc. etc. and round and round we go...

You may also want to point out to your friend that the people raping men are also mostly men so the idea of socialising men out of sexual violence is still valid.

Got you, thank you.

The quote got me thinking so much because I have a bug bear about 50 shades of grey (I know I'm not alone) and, I suspect because this person has 'enjoyed' the books and we've had a number of heated discussions on the subject. I maintain that the books are another step along the scary road of normalising sexual violence towards women and promoting a range of damaging behaviours in an incredibly accessible way (...because everyone's doing it right??) I think it makes it harder for women to understand that it's absolutely normal and OK not to be turned on by that kind of thing...

I can see a lot more reading over here on my immediate horizon.

Thanks again