Active discussions

Meet the Other Phone. A phone that grows with your child.

Meet the Other Phone.
A phone that grows with your child.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Talk
Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Feminism: chat

Original poster

Five men facing death penalty after bus rape

522 replies

allthegoodnamesweretaken · 13/01/2013 19:15

BBC news link here

I'm feeling conflicted about this. Obviously what these men did was horrific, vile and unforgivable. But I just cannot agree with the death penalty.

I feel like I am somehow excusing what they did by not wanting them to be killed, and I can't emphasise enough how despicable I find their actions.

Does the fact that they violated the poor woman's human rights so violently and abhorrently mean they should have their right to life taken away too? Am i being too soft?

I suppose I am asking how you all feel about this, how do you think they should be punished? Also have you ever had your feminist views conflict with other principles, and how have you dealt with this?

OP posts:
ZooAnimals · 14/01/2013 02:59

'Suggesting that these particular men should be hanged doesn't mean we want every rapist to be hanged or that we want to allow the government to murder people'

It does. It means exactly that. You want the government to murder these men. You want the government to be allowed to murder these men. That's what the death penalty is.

If you honestly think that people this depraved and deranged would have gone 'well I'm up for raping, beating, disemboweling with an iron rod and throwing a woman from a moving bus....oh hang,....no, we might be executed? praps I'll just stay in and play on the wii then', you're seriously deluded. Check out the murder rates in the American states that have the death penalty. Are they lower that in states without?

PiccadillyCervix · 14/01/2013 03:32

I'm against the death penalty but I can't pretend I give a fuck about these guys. death will be a walk in the park compared to what the victim felt

WaynettaSlobsLover · 14/01/2013 07:20

This thread is unreal. 'Feminists' who in this particular and horrific case after the murder and rape of a fellow female would still NOT support the death penalty for these men? And by the way AllTheGood, you say very naively that things can be changed with education. Let me tell you now both through personal experience and general life knowledge, some of these subhumans will NEVER EVER change, and do not WANT to change. There is a sense of entitlement in these animals as well as a rapists urge to rape anything with a pulse, and particularly a female because if course they are and always will be second class citizens. I'm leaving this thread because I feel quite sick to the stomach that even in THIS case, some of you women can still support the right of life to these men. Jyoti herself wanted them burnt alive, if it ever happened to you or anyone you love, god forbid, I'm pretty sure your views would change drastically.

noblegiraffe · 14/01/2013 07:32

I really don't think you can slate people's feminist convictions simply because they are against the death penalty. Feminism is about equal rights for men and women. If they said that they were against the death penalty for men, but if a woman did this then they should be executed, or supported the death penalty only if the victim who died had been a man, then you might have a point.

Branleuse · 14/01/2013 07:41

i am much more concerned with the fact that men can rape and abuse women with impunity there, than i am about what they do with the perpetrators.
India is so vast, so many lawless areas and a corrupt police force, coupled with a system where women are valueless. I dont think there is any viable option other than the death penalty at the moment, and with the severity of this crime, I think its appropriate anyway. Youd put dogs down for less.

Flojobunny · 14/01/2013 07:57

One other thing though. Sorry I haven't got time to catch up on the whole thread so apologies if this has been mentioned.
There were six men, who is to say one of them wasn't completely terrified and begging them to stop but was over powered? There must have been some sort of gang leader or something.

NotGoodNotBad · 14/01/2013 08:41

"I just find it strange that "feminists" want to go easy on the men who committed such a heinous crime. "

I'm a feminist but would certainly not want to go easy on these men. However, I'm against the death penalty, which means I'm against the death penalty for all, no exceptions. If you make exceptions you allow the state to persecute the weak rather than the strong, the poor rather than the rich, the black rather than the white. Come to that, if you look at the US, this is what happens anyway. In fact, please do look at the US - the death penalty may stop that particular criminal reoffending, but does nothing for the rates or murder and rape.

And if it were my family? Maybe I would want revenge, yes, but you can't base a justice system on what the family want - if some families want revenge and some are merciful, the punishment depends on the beliefs of the victims' families, not on the severity of the crime.

Trills · 14/01/2013 08:50

As a feminist I believe in equality between the sexes.

I do not support the death penalty for men or for women.

Perfectly equal. Not in any way contradictory.

CelticPromise · 14/01/2013 08:52

I also agree with Trills. I'm opposed to the death penalty in all circumstances. It's barbaric.

noblegiraffe · 14/01/2013 08:55

The UK neither has the death penalty, nor a great record for convicting rapists, yet it doesn't seem to have the same level of problem with despicable crimes against women that India does, from sex selective abortion to acid attacks to horrific gang rapes. The problem in India seems to go a lot deeper than would be cured simply by executing these men, as evidenced by the fact that there has already been another bus gang rape despite the likelihood that these men will hang.

ZombiesAreClammyDodgers · 14/01/2013 09:08

Did somebody really say that the state's reasons for wanting to deprive these men of their life could be equated to the justification that Hitler used for the holocaust???
Seriously?
Culpability. Isn't that the key difference? These guys did something horrific.
Those poor people didn't.

Trills · 14/01/2013 09:45

You can say

"I am 100% convinced that they did do it so the death penalty is OK in this case"

but if you do so then you are saying that the death penalty should be allowed in general, and you don't get to decide every time whether you are convinced enough (and even if you did, are you infallible?).

ICBINEG · 14/01/2013 09:54

I was struck by the recent revelation that violent crime levels are predicted accurately by exposure to environmental lead 20 years ago. People who were exposed to high levels of lead in infancy often have mis-development of the brain.

Is it crazy to wonder if "string em up" is the correct response for dealing with people that we (in this case Indian's) as a society may have caused to be violent in the first place, with our failure to produce a safe environment for children?

WantsToBeFree · 14/01/2013 09:55

Even if you call it state sanctioned murder, for men who committed such a heinous crime, why is that wrong? Do some people seriously think that these men deserve to live after what they did? People insisted they weren't arguing for rapists' "rights", but that's what it comes to doesn't it? You honestly think that the men who did this have a right to life? I find that sickening.

It isn't just about whether or not rapes will still occur after these men are hanged. Punishments should be commensurate with the crime committed. The punishment alone isn't about what will and will nor prevent rape. There are other measures that need to be taken to stop rape, such as more convictions, stringent laws, and better policing.

Also, you aren't Indian. You don't know their culture, their social climate and the mindset of the average person on the street. Every country is different and what works for UK may not for India. They have to do what they feel best, not what the so-called developed world thinks they should do.

I'm also appalled that WOMEN are making excuses for them by contemplating that some may have been "forced" to commit this crime.

Firstly, Jyoti repeatedly stated that every one of the six men raped her- repeatedly. Rape is rape and it's disgusting- you can't get away by claiming that you were "forced". I'm appalled that someone would even think this.

WantsToBeFree · 14/01/2013 09:57

People who think that allowing the death penalty in this case is the same as allowing it in general, obviously have no understanding of Indian law.

AntoinetteCosway · 14/01/2013 09:57

Murder is murder, and the death penalty is murder as far as I'm concerned. I am anti it in all cases, no matter how horrific the crime. What these men did is sickening and they need to be kept away from society, for the sake of everyone else, but I'm not sure I believe in punishment at all really...I would like to believe that everyone has the ability to discover new things about themselves, regret their actions, ask for forgiveness etc. In order for that to happen they need to be alive and kept in humane conditions. I'm not saying give them all Sky and Xbox, just that I think prison should be about a) the protection of society as a whole and b) the opportunity for reflection and redemption. Not killing people, or punishing them indefinitely.

Trills · 14/01/2013 09:58

To be in favour of the death penalty you have to think:

1 - it is right to kill people

2 - the number of people wrongly convicted and therefore wrongly killed will be acceptably small (or zero)

I do not agree with either of those statements.

WantsToBeFree · 14/01/2013 10:07

Anybody who thinks that these six men are capable of "reform" is hopelessly naive. And anybody who thinks that they deserve 'humane' conditions after what they did is not a feminist in my book.

Also these sanctimonious opinions come from people who've never experienced brutality. I'm certain that when they have an iron rod up to their intestines, their opinion will change.

Had I been brutalised in this manner and my attackers had been kept alive in "humane" conditions for "reform", I'd have died a slow mental death.

This is akin to encouraging crime. Rape, mutilate and disembowel somebody- but don't worry, we won't punish you, we'll just let you have a think about it and reform yourself. BULLSHIT.

Trills · 14/01/2013 10:17

Every human deserves humane conditions.

I reject your definition of feminism.

AntoinetteCosway · 14/01/2013 10:22

I do too. There are no circumstances under which it is ok to exact suffering on someone else in my opinion.

TheMysteryCat · 14/01/2013 10:29

I also completely reject your definition of feminism and your argument.

Being against the death penalty is not being pro-rape. What an unnecessary and incorrect view to assert.

ReallyTired · 14/01/2013 10:35

We may not agree with the death penalty, but if India chooses to execute these men its understandable. India has bigger spending priorities than keeping these men alive languishing in jail.

India is one of the world's largest democracies. If its citizens want to put the six men to death then its none of our business. Certainly one of the men will not be executed as he is only seventeen years old.

Its easy to forget how poor India is. Children die needlessly of easily treatable conditions. I expect the average Indian citizen would prefer their taxes to be spent on treating a young baby in the slums for diaoherra than keeping these men alive.

WantsToBeFree · 14/01/2013 10:53

If you think that men who mutilate women have a right to humane conditions then I reject YOUR definition of feminism. If you want to pardon and "reform" men who brutalise women, then I reject your definition of feminism.

It isn't about being anti-death penalty, it's about thinking that these six monsters have a "right" to humanity. They don't.

WantsToBeFree · 14/01/2013 10:55

By saying that perpetrators of crime against women have a right to good treatment, you're essentially saying it's OK to brutalise women.

I'm sickened by how WOMEN think.

WantsToBeFree · 14/01/2013 10:57

If someone shoved am iron rod inside you and removed your intestines, would you think they are deserving of "humane" treatment? For fucks sake.