Is it possible that we are second best?

[Pinkypoops]

Is it conceivable that the reason women are STILL struggling for equal recognition for their achievements, equal pay, equal respect etc etc is that we are just not as good at a lot of things as men are??
This is a pretty horrifying thought that´s been niggling at the back of my mind for a little while and I REALLY want you lot to convince me otherwise!!

Here´s the deal: I´ve ALWAYS had feminist leanings, stood up for myself, been OUTRAGED whenever anyone has suggested I am in any way inferior or less able to do something based on gender. I was the lone voice at my rather conservative university questioning the status quo, whilst my very intelligent female colleagues (academically, at any rate) would prepare sandwiches for their boyfriends on a Saturday night so they´d have something to stave off the munchies when they staggered back from their drunken boys´nights out. eyeroll
BUT........lately I´m thinking that equality isn´t that straight forward and most of the time it seems we females are out to self-sabotage! Look at all these ridiculous sex-kitten role models that so many girls aspire to be like- one after the other of these female pop stars sells out her integrity and talent to become over-sexed and under-dressed. "Rah rah...girl-power"...my ass! (or rather, HER barely-covered ass!) Their one and only aim seems to be to lay it all out there for men to "come and get it". (Oh gawd...I sound like some prudish Mother Grundy...haha...but SERIOUSLY...can somebody please shut Rihanna and her gurlfriends up??!!)
Yes women are safer drivers as in they have fewer accidents, but my God, I´ve seen some cringey moments with women who just cannot for the love of all things holy park their OWN cars.
And in the work place....we definitely lack the confidence that men have. (I include myself here) I´m in the medical field and I have to be honest....sometimes feminine self-doubt is not at all helpful when it comes to the big decisions. Men are still the top surgeons and it isn´t lack of opportunity as I see it....it´s because they believe in themselves and are prepared to take chances.
And yes, you might say it´s down to conditioning, blah blah...but I think it´s fundamentally testosterone that gives them the edge in so many ways. No matter how much we like to think otherwise, we are sabotaged by our hormones! They make us focus on having babies, being submissive, under-confident and lacking in ambition in our otherwise most productive years.
I´m all ears to hear as many opinions as possible on this!

No, I know they haven´t (as I said)- I was referring to other threads, Abigail. If I haven´t engaged with everyone it´s because it´s moved very fast so I haven´t been able to respond to each and every poster which doesn´t mean I haven´t read and valued what people have said. I appreciate ALL the input but I didn´t come on here to have a fight. Prefer to keep things civil. Despite the sensitive subject, I´m not the enemy here.

Grimma "....what would happen if someone was to write a simulation with two separate worlds - one 'male' the other 'female' but capable of parthenogenesis. Of course defining m/f 'characteristics' without being merely stereotypical would be difficult but I wouldn't bet that Planet Testostero would be a happier place than Planet Oestro."

Eh? By defining 'male' and 'female' characters but then making them capable of of parthenogenesis you would be writing out the very thing that has shaped maleness and femaleness (sexual reproduction) and instead have to rely on sterotypes to tell your pink/girly characters from your blue/macho characters.

I would like to do the opposite simulation. Two populations living together to all extents and purposes identical but with different reproductive odds - one can have one child a year maximum, the other can have as many children as they are able fertilise (but are unable to reliably identify their own children). Children need 3 years of intensive care for survival and 10 more years of less intensive care.

you would be writing out the very thing that has shaped maleness and femaleness (sexual reproduction)

Yes, that would be the point. To make the 'male' have to childbear/childrear if the 'male' society was to survive. As I said, defining the 'M/F' characteristics wouldn't be easy without mere stereotyping (which IRL I reject...scientist with a grandfather who was a champion knitter that I am) - but its only a simulation - would in fact stereotypical males actually turn out 'better' than stereotypical females?

I'd like to see your simulation too - and I'm sure there are others that could be dreamed up to explore the dynamics. How about a simulation in which the individuals with otherwise 'male' characteristics were the childbearers and BFers (so had the interrupted careers)

"one thing that seriously gets my goat is placing under-qualified people in positions because of their demographic (grrrr)"

Yes, me too. The Old Boy's Network and nepotism really gets my goat.

It amazes me that men as a collective are responsible for waaaaay more violence than women yet you think it is women that are inferior.

Just to throw in a counter, I found this very interesting on youtube. I would say that the sentiments voiced by the women are spot on and no different in my industry

also interesting reading

www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/jobs/9444289/Women-in-UK-engineering-jobs-worryingly-low.html#disqus_thread

FWIW a friend and manager at my last company actively recruited female engineers and I think they found that, ironically, although massively under-represented by women engineering is probably one the most open and equal environments you could work in.

I think book recommendation-wise, I'd recommend Kat Banyard's the Equality Illusion and Cordelia Fine's Delusions of Gender, as you seem to have been exposed to a lot of shite evo-bollocks stuff, which Fine debunks brilliantly and comprehensibly - I know nowt about science but I managed to follow her arguments.

I also think in terms of consciousness, psychology etc., and how living in a hostile misogynist society affects women, Mary Daly is pretty hard to beat. I haven't actually read that much feminist theory at all, just plucking stuff I know.

Also it's worth looking out for feminist blogs. I read one the other day which posited the idea that if women had been allowed to participate in the building of society and the pursuit of knowledge, we'd be able to talk to the animals by now. It's a bit tongue in cheek, but what the writer was saying, was that maybe women would not have allowed environmentally unfriendly solutions to economic growth - with their input, men and women together might have reached different solutions which wouldn't have resulted in the decimation of species, mass murder, desecration of land and environment. It is no co-incidence that the rise of environmentalism, co-incided with the rise of women's rights. For example, vivisection was first challenged as a necessary and ethical procedure, by women scientists. I can't find that blog now, but here's another one which asks "where were the witches?" which touches on that question, among other stuff.

feministninja.tumblr.com/post/39564998138/patriarchy-killed-my-little-sister

Has anyone read Ursula Le Guin's The Left Hand of Darkness? Where people have no fixed gender and only have gender identities once a month? It's on my list ... Should be interesting.

I'd like to challenge Willowme's assertian about women's behaviour in the workplace. I don't at recognise myself or any of my female colleagues in that description, and I've been working for 18 years. I've known of two people to have an affair - with each other, so 50/50. I've never encountered the so called female bitchiness - somehting I think men are equally guilty of, btw, it just gets called "bitchiness" when women do it but not when men do it.
Most of the people I've worked with have been pleasant and professional, any that haven't haven't really stood out as being one gender or another.

xkitty - yes, ITA - I've been working for over 25 years in an industry which has more men than women but the teams I've been with have not been too unbalanced. I can't ever remember any bitchiness or people having affairs (there was one pair who became quite a serious couple but they were blokes).

If I listen to DH, who worked for a less pleasant company for many years, there was some extremely nasty behaviour - not mere bitchiness but real bullying and schemeing - from various males.

Apologies Pinky you did say that we hadn't been personal. I missed that. However, coming out with statements such as "you might say it is down to conditioning blah blah..." is pretty dismissive of an alternative viewpoint (which you had clearly thought about despite protestations to the contrary). It isn't really conducive to building a constructive conversation if you are going to dismiss the alternative debating points with a "whatever" even before the conversation begins. That is more conducive to starting a fight.

And tbh honest most people read a bit in a section or on a forum before jumping in with both feet with a topic likely to upset others.

Anyway Festivia has been a lot more constructive than me, as have others so hopefully you have some food for thought at least.

Can I jump in and say that I think some of you are being a little harsh on the OP. She has raised a valid point, which, though it may not actually be true, many people believe. And so it is a very valid discussion to have, both to share our views with the OP, and also to help us sharpen our opinions and arguments on the subject for future debate.

Another book recommendation Pinky - the Blank Slate by Steven Pinker

No idea if we are second best, but no-one on here can say for sure either AFAIK. All we have seen is anecdotal stuff (either way) and talk about conditioning and reading lists.

Maybe we are oppressed and socially conditioned not to succeed, and are ALSO, generally speaking, not as good at certain things? One thing doesn't necessarily cause the other not to be true.

I have yet as an average everyday person found any activity that I can say categorically women are better than men at or vice versa.

I've never read a feminist book either op, doesn't mean I therefore make sexist generalisations.

In practical terms perhaps you could get a computer game where you sing, dance, wave your arms about etc so you can engage more with your dc and dh if they spend a lot of time playing games. It would do them (and you) good to see that women can play computer games too.

Pinkypoops here's a post I just came across relating to that thing about women speaking in meetings:

www.smh.com.au/executive-style/management/want-to-get-ahead-in-business-shut-your-mouth-20120607-1zxjy.html

Apologies, butting in without reading the entire thread, I was informed at 18 by my male driving instructor that women couldn't reverse because of a brain deficiency. Hardly surprising we grow up lacking in confidence then.. Many older women have been subjected to comments such as this (little wonder some of us start to believe them).

devilinside

That is pretty sad and whilst he was a complete baboon there is some truth to our brains being different. This is a pretty basic test but scientifically there is (allegedly) rationale behind our differences. The quiz takes a few moments but is a bit of light fun.

www.bbc.co.uk/science/humanbody/sex/add_user.shtml

For info I scored 10/10 for the eye/emotion test so higher than most women who took the test.

Haha! Did the test. My brain is neither female nor male, useless at reading emotions from eyes, but I can find things!

Can't do that test as I am on an iPad, but I suspect if I did I'd be very much a bloke (I am female). I have a better sense of direction than dp, can park just fine, and I am no good at cleaning and shit.

Oh and I am highly educated on a demanding degree course and I am female! Who'd have thought? But then again more then half of my year group are. But then that's not important, as I am rubbish at computer games (or perhaps I have no interested in being good at them because thy are pointless?)

I have a very male brain, apparently!

I came out as more female.

I have to say that I found the bit where you looked at (in my case, male) faces really uncomfortable and in a way, threatening. I clicked through it as fast as I could.

as for the OP, it kind of made me realise why I should call myself a feminist and not just accept the crap in my life. I do the same job as DH, but with two children to look after during the week and no familial support, whilst he is away and can concentrate on his work. We earn the same. Enough said.

Hello all!! Well haven´t you all been busy while I got dragged away? Thanks for all that fodder, Festivia and co....will jot it all down and go a-researching forthwith!
Sorry if I got a bit uppity back there,but I hate fighting or conflict and was just a bit shocked at the..erm..forceful nature of some of the responses. No harm done though
Thanks too for the cool links, Familyguy...I now see why I am so confused! Haha...I am smack bang in the middle of "male" and "female"- I got 12/12 for that rotating stuff in the air bit, but can make no sense whatsoever of betting odds and am crap at chess :-/
Just to give some background to those of you still baffled by my posts:
I grew up in Apartheid SA. I was told my career choice was unsuited to girls (and they limited our intake so there could never be more than 50% female students). I was frequently laughed at or shouted down at family gatherings or nights out with friends when I stood up for my beliefs in equality and fairness. Most of my friends think feminism is a filthy word and none of them are interested in discussing it with me
My driving instructor, devilinside spent the hour long sessions groping my thigh in the interests of "controlling my driving" and I was too polite to tell him not to! And I could go on.....oh dear, have I been random again in my choice of examples?? Sorry!
So I suspect growing up in the UK was a different experience and we are all products of our experiences, aren´t we? Hope that sheds some light....Keep in mind too, that we females who enjoy relative freedom and equality are very much a tiny minority on a world scale....sad, innit?

I can do everything better than my husband...apart from engineering but that is his job haha. As for Willowme's ridiculous comments about women bein bitchy at work...my second to last boss was male who brought the men into his office for a big old smoke and gossip each morning - the boys' club as I called it. He also made subtle threats against his staff if they spoke out against him, and was a pervert to boot. So when I hear anyone saying that WOMEN are bitchy at work, well... He left and a woman took over - easily the best, most stable and supportive manager I have EVER had.

I think as well another poster mentioned male violence...I could never EVER think of men as in any way better than women just because, even if you took out all their achievements, they as a group are so much more violent and have caused so much more suffering than any other living species. To be honest, because of this, there are times I think women are the better ones.