Is it possible that we are second best?

[Pinkypoops]

Is it conceivable that the reason women are STILL struggling for equal recognition for their achievements, equal pay, equal respect etc etc is that we are just not as good at a lot of things as men are??
This is a pretty horrifying thought that´s been niggling at the back of my mind for a little while and I REALLY want you lot to convince me otherwise!!

Here´s the deal: I´ve ALWAYS had feminist leanings, stood up for myself, been OUTRAGED whenever anyone has suggested I am in any way inferior or less able to do something based on gender. I was the lone voice at my rather conservative university questioning the status quo, whilst my very intelligent female colleagues (academically, at any rate) would prepare sandwiches for their boyfriends on a Saturday night so they´d have something to stave off the munchies when they staggered back from their drunken boys´nights out. eyeroll
BUT........lately I´m thinking that equality isn´t that straight forward and most of the time it seems we females are out to self-sabotage! Look at all these ridiculous sex-kitten role models that so many girls aspire to be like- one after the other of these female pop stars sells out her integrity and talent to become over-sexed and under-dressed. "Rah rah...girl-power"...my ass! (or rather, HER barely-covered ass!) Their one and only aim seems to be to lay it all out there for men to "come and get it". (Oh gawd...I sound like some prudish Mother Grundy...haha...but SERIOUSLY...can somebody please shut Rihanna and her gurlfriends up??!!)
Yes women are safer drivers as in they have fewer accidents, but my God, I´ve seen some cringey moments with women who just cannot for the love of all things holy park their OWN cars.
And in the work place....we definitely lack the confidence that men have. (I include myself here) I´m in the medical field and I have to be honest....sometimes feminine self-doubt is not at all helpful when it comes to the big decisions. Men are still the top surgeons and it isn´t lack of opportunity as I see it....it´s because they believe in themselves and are prepared to take chances.
And yes, you might say it´s down to conditioning, blah blah...but I think it´s fundamentally testosterone that gives them the edge in so many ways. No matter how much we like to think otherwise, we are sabotaged by our hormones! They make us focus on having babies, being submissive, under-confident and lacking in ambition in our otherwise most productive years.
I´m all ears to hear as many opinions as possible on this!

[FestiviaBlueberry]

Just to reassure you about that BBC link Pinkypoops, I noticed that one of the tests was one done by Simon Baron-Cohen - whose work Cordelia Fine has very interesting (de-bunking) stuff to say about in Delusions of Gender.

I was exactly 50 50 male female btw. So a perfectly balanced human being then.

[Pinkypoops]

As far as workplace gender conflict goes, as I said earlier, I have always found women easier to work with, but have also heard people talk about the kind of behaviour that Willowme mentioned. Don´t shout her down! If that´s her experience then perhaps she is just unfortunate to have worked with a crap bunch of people who happen to be women. Equally I like to keep an open mind and think that any future male colleagues I may have will be easier than the lot in the past!
Hey, Festivia I read those links...interesting about those skewed perceptions- I´m very glad I´m not in a corporate environment and have to put up with that shit really! Annoying! Not sure about the Ninja blogger though...some interesting points definitely about the history of medicine, but I think a fair amount of her argument is clouded by her emotion and anger at the loss of a loved one and not entirely realistic. Nevertheless....very sad that the poor child´s major concern was her appearance. That sucks!
And woop woop for being a 50/50 too

[Pinkypoops]

...and another thing.....(here I go again)....
I´ve found it fascinating becoming a mother and having 2 boys. I am CONSTANTLY hearing parents around me go, "Oh and girls are like this...but boys are like that....my daughter likes x because she´s a girl", "boys are easy, girls are a nightmare or vice versa" etc etc.
I honestly believed babies came out like a blank slate and their personality, gender tendencies, etc were about 80% environmentally influenced.
WRONG!!
In my experience, they come out with a lot of their tendencies right there from word GO. My 1st is stereotypically "male" in so many ways...I can guarantee he would have scored at the extreme male end of the scale of that there lil´BBC test-icle. But my 2nd is a lot softer, more affectionate, likes to play in the mini kitchen at Ikea, etc, whilst still being a hooligan in the playground. I am certain that, had he been born a girl, we would so easily have joined the generalisation-brigade and said, "Oh look- she is like this because she is a girl and her brother is like that because he is a boy". If we don´t think about these things and question, we just keep perpetuating all the misconceptions. Again, it comes down to being HUMAN 1st and male/female 2nd.....and I´m just babbling really....but constantly frustrated that other parents are NOT thinking, are conditioning THEIR kids which is in turn rubbing off on MINE!! Grrrrrrr

[GrimmaTheNome]

I came out as male on that test. 20/20 on the line angle matching thing...seemed trivially easy to spot which were parallel. I didn't do as well on the shape rotation as I'd expected - its something I do IRL a lot easily.

If we don´t think about these things and question, we just keep perpetuating all the misconceptions. Again, it comes down to being HUMAN 1st and male/female 2nd.....and I´m just babbling really....but constantly frustrated that other parents are NOT thinking, are conditioning THEIR kids which is in turn rubbing off on MINE!!

ITA - though fortunately my DD is a goat rather than a sheep and doesn't mind if what she wants to do doesn't fit stereotypes.

[tribpot]

Pinkypoops - I've certainly heard the same kind of gender reinforcement that you describe (I'm sure we all have). The guy who sits next to me at work was comparing his own son ('a proper boy') with one of his mates ('who's like a girl, always whining and not wanting to join in'). When I said 'so that's your view of women, is it?' he was like 'errr, no OF COURSE not'. And actually I don't think with his conscious mind it is, but he 'just says' things, the way 'people do'. Like how people used to be casually racist without necessarily 'meaning' things or intending to be disparaging. Look how well that turned out.

So generalised statements about gender will always be challenged on this board. They're not helpful.

Btw, in terms of computer games - it's worth noting that because most of them are written by men, many of them don't appeal to lots of women. For example, I like the Lego games for the Wii/DS and so on because they are totally non-violent (unless you count Lego characters falling apart and then putting their own legs back on), focus about equally on problem solving and general bashing stuff up and fighting, and are hilarious piss-takes of whatever film or book they're based on (Lord of the Rings is great). But when I was looking for a game to play on my laptop recently most of the 'adult' games didn't appeal because they tend to involve fighting, conquering stuff or playing as a [male] thief, or whatever (depressingly, some friends of mine who were playing the big online Star Wars game before Xmas would deliberately play as a female character in order to watch her arse as she walked around the online world). I could have played as Nancy Drew, though :)

So I think we would see a different landscape if more computer games were written by women - not necessarily aimed specifically at women but less pigeon-holed in the traditional storylines. This is beginning to happen but it takes time.

[bigkidsdidit]

Pinkypoops you really should read Delusions of Gender by Cordelia Fine. I think you would find it fascinating

[UptoapointLordCopper]

I have many shouty arguments with one of my very good friends about "girls are like this" and "boys are like that". She's lovely (even though wrong) and is still talking to me.

[MiraWard]

The Equality Illusion by Kat Banyard was a defining thing for me. It really did open my eyes to things I would previously have put down to biology. And it is not heavy going as a read either. I would recommend it for the compulsory school reading list.

[Pinkypoops]

Glad the same book titles keep coming up! That means I don´t have an endless list of 100 books thrown at me to start off with. Cordelia and Kat appear to be the sisters I need to be reading to start me on the road to enlightenment
Thanks

[Pinkypoops]

Is Naomi Woolf worth reading? That may well also be spelt Wolf Woolfe or Woof Apologies if I got it wrong

[FestiviaBlueberry]

Beauty Myth was very good, but she's gone downhill since then ...

Beauty Myth readable and informative though.

[Lessthanaballpark]

Oooo I just took the test and I'm smack bang in the middle of male and female brain although I scored much higher on spatial/rotational and I can't read faces.

Some of the questions were a bit loaded though, especially the questions where it tried to ascertain how much cared re. other's feelings, cos a lot of that stuff is learned through guilt for women.

Plus, the end money bit, where they assume that if you gave an equal amount to the other person it meant you liked to take risks (and must therefore be more "male"). It could just be that you have a sense of fairness which is kind of logical.

Interesting though.

Re. the books - I'd recommending reading some Jessica Valenti - she is American so some of it a bit more focused on reproductive rights but really interesting NTL...

[DrRanj]

I scored right slap bang in the middle too!

[UptoapointLordCopper]

One of the things pointed out by one of those books linked in one of those posts is that profiling often makes you choose between two things that are both "you", so to speak. Then some people will start to think "if I choose this they will think I'm not suitable for the job" or some such. So it often doesn't reflect the "truth", if there is such a thing.

I said half the money and am shocked at what other people apparently do!

[Pinkypoops]

Yes, exactly! I just assumed fairness and said 50/50...didn´t occur to me to try and get more than that....clearly I would be crap in the business world...haha
And isn´t that what ALL of this boils down to? Fairness? I don´t want MORE than my fair share....I just don´t want less either. Not so much to ask, surely? Why can´t EVERYONE win?

[snowshapes]

Yes, I said half the money too, but I am guessing if everyone said that, we wouldn't have inequality in society!

[Lessthanaballpark]

"Yes, exactly! I just assumed fairness and said 50/50...didn´t occur to me to try and get more than that....clearly I would be crap in the business world...haha"

OP, I think a belief in fairness would be an excellent principle upon which to run the business world. The current model clearly isn't working.

[inde]

Just to reassure you about that BBC link Pinkypoops, I noticed that one of the tests was one done by Simon Baron-Cohen - whose work Cordelia Fine has very interesting (de-bunking) stuff to say about in Delusions of Gender.

In fairness to Baron-Cohen he did reply to her criticism in his review of her book in the psychologist.

issuu.com/thepsychologist/docs/psy1110?mode=window&pageNumber=14

As for "are women second best", I can't believe any woman would seriously ask that. I'm male and I find the idea offensive.
I do think there are differences between males and females though (other than obvious physical differences) and Baron-Cohen explains it well in his review.

[runningforthebusinheels]

^"I just assumed fairness and said 50/50...didn´t occur to me to try and get more than that....clearly I would be crap in the business world...haha
And isn´t that what ALL of this boils down to? Fairness? I don´t want MORE than my fair share....I just don´t want less either. Not so much to ask, surely? Why can´t EVERYONE win?"^

Yes, I also said 50/50 - an innate sense of fairness I suppose.

Another poster on here often quotes these figures:

Men own 99% of the world's wealth and earn 70% of the world's income. In the UK, girls continue to out-perform boys at GCSE level, and yet, 4 in 5 men earn more than their wives. Men have about 80% of positions on most boards, the cabinet and just about any institution you care to mention.

Food for thought.

[runningforthebusinheels]

Oops. c&p / italics fail there.

[GrimmaTheNome]

I put 50:50 on that thing too...sounds like most of us did (or maybe those who didn't don't want to admit it). Maybe people interested in the sort of questions raised in this thread are a self-selecting group disposed to fairness and equality.

[superstarheartbreaker]

Well I think men ARE better at certain things than we are liek spacial awareness and therefore ball games/driving etc but then women are better at other things such as empathy, breastfeeding and multi tasking. It's what society values the most that we have a problem with.

[SabrinaMulhollandJjones]

You're giving us breastfeeding ?!

I would hope we are better than men at that!

[tribpot]

You know men are better at peeing standing up.

[UptoapointLordCopper]

Well, according to that test I (a woman) am better at spacial awareness than A LOT of men. Which man is better that which woman at what? The only things I know for sure are:

1. Men are better at peeing standing up, as others have said.
   
   
2. Women are better (in fact, exclusively so) at having babies and breastfeeding.
   
   Hang on. That's two things women are better at.