I don't know where to start...

[StuntGirl]

Please excuse this long, disjointed post. I'm sure everything I write here will be obvious, and old news to everyone here, but its a recent thing I'm struggling to deal with.

I've always considered myself a feminist, in that I believed in equal rights for women. I thought it was inherently wrong to discriminate based on gender, and I challenged it where I came across it. I have however, never been particularly active with regards to feminism. I've always known we live in a male dominated society, I've always known women can be discriminated against, I've always known women still face struggles based on simply being women and I've always challenged it where I can but for the most part I suppose I've been fairly passive. But for some reason, very recently, every small injustice has screamed out at me. I'm noticing, with increasing irritation, the unequal representation of the sexes in the media, the unequal opportunities presented to men vs women, the gaping inequality in family life.

A few weeks ago I was watching QI. It suddenly dawned on me the entire panel was male.
Just before Christmas we were watching Michael McIntyre's Comedy Roadshow, and about a quarter of the way into it I realised every performer had been male.
I recently read an article in the Guardian about female representation in film, and was introduced to the Bechdel test. I was astonished to read what a huge percentage of films don't pass this ridiculously simple test.
Last night I watched a Horizon programme on asteroids, and was saddened to notice that not a single female scientist was questioned in the programme at all.
Today we went to watch The Hobbit, which I noticed also did not pass the Bechdel test.

I commented on Facebook last night about the Horizon programme, and was absolutely expecting one or more people to make some lame sexist joke and I was proven right on the very first comment. Depressingly, out of all the comments in the discussion that followed, the one that got the most likes was that initial 'joke'.

Today after the film I commented to my brother about the Bechdel test, and was surprised to find he scoffed at me over applying this test to a book written so long ago. I tried to explain I wasn't thinking about The Hobbit in isolation, but as part of media in general. He scoffed some more, rolled his eyes, and made me feel like I was being a whiny bitch by bringing it up at all. My own brother! A man I have always considered intelligent, respectful, liberal and a feminist himself.

I think the thing that has saddened me most about my recent, well, epiphany I suppose, is the reactions from the males in my life when I raise the topic. Men I have up until now considered, like my brother, to be intelligent, respectful men who want an equal society. I guess my eyes are opening to how much that may not be true, how much they are indoctrinated themselves.

The only male who has shared my reactions has been my boyfriend. I have seriously never loved him so much as over these past few days.

I guess what I'm saying is, I need a place to discuss these issues, to understand them and speak to people who share the same beliefs. I need to find out more, and do more. Can anyone point me in the direction of some good feminist resources, or communities? Until now I've held a passive interest in feminism, and somehow suddenly that doesn't seem enough.

Study

God, I just love that the thing NCG brings onto the thread, from that Brian Cox article, is the quote about 'silly giggly middle aged women.'

The article was about 'invisible wife syndrome'. Something I have a lot of sympathy with, being the wife of a very successful man.

LRD, particle physics, last time I was (vv peripherally) involved, was a very egalitarian society full of enthusiastic and endearingly style-free lads and lasses with remarkably similar outlook and haircuts, whatever their sex.

Next-best for gender-blindness was the staffing ration of a science magazine (though someone did once ask my boss, 'Why do all the girls on your team have short hair and all the boys have long hair?', to which she replied, 'So I can tell them apart.'

I can believe that kitty - a couple of DH's mates are physicists and they are lovely people, far too busy being interested in what they do to notice or care who's who!

Your boss's reply is brilliant.

namechangeguy

First post since the Xmas break so Happy New Year to you and all!

I have no idea about Brian Cox's academic work but what I can say (from working in planetary sciences for half my career) is that the ability to present and academic achievement are in no way related. I have worked with some of the brightest minds (male and female) but these have also been people that cannot even hold a conversation whilst making eye contact. Most just look at your shoes and are so socially inept that it's painful. I'm not saying that Brian is all charisma and no talent but just that the two don't always go hand-in-hand. IME you are genuinely fortunate if you have bags of charisma and are at the top of your game academically. You are even more so if you also have 'on screen' ability too.

I am a lot less 'gifted' academically but a people person. I've presented in schools and other events sucessfully so know I am good with people. However, I have had a go at TV presenting (science) and have no shame in admitting that I failed miserably. It was a "don't call us, we'll call you" moment, which is sad but the job requires a level of ability that I just don't posess.

Incidentally, just to level the discussion, the Rough Science series was presented by Kate Humble and consisted of an equal male/female scientist cast. In my search for more info I also found this article, which provides some counter argument.

www.guardian.co.uk/science/2011/may/03/women-science-tv

But seriously, are we suggesting that men don't suffer from 'invisible husband syndrome' either? There are plenty of successful celebrity females that are married to unknown men and they suffer from exactly the same thing. However, the difference is the typical comment that the man couldn't stand a woman being more sucessful, which may be true (in some cases) but is simply another stereotype.

Really? I'm trying to think of celebrity women whose husbands are unknown. I do believe the exist, of course, but they don't spring to mind. Most women in the public eye that I can think of, I know who they're married to. I didn't even know Cox was married.

If we're thinking of presenters/TV personalities, I can't move for people talking about who Victoria Coren is related to, the fact (shock) that Sue Perkins and Sandi Toksvig are lesbians, etc. etc. I do believe people pay a lot more attention to who women are married to, than to who men are married to.

Of course, it may be the (oh-so pleasing) fact that there are fewer women in the public eye as presenters and physicists that is to blame here.

This is an interesting article from the BBC re attempts to improve their coverage of science;

www.bbc.co.uk/ariel/20528607

It says this; 'The follow-up report adds: 'We are working hard to increase the number of female scientists we put on air, in the knowledge that women form 12% of the scientific, engineering or technology industry.' (sorry for quoting directly from an article, but I think it preserves accuracy )

If this is accurate, would it be fair to aim for 12 per cent of presenters of such subjects to be women? And as (hopefully) more women take up scientific posts in future, this percentage can increase pro rata.

I don't know what I find more depressing - the fact that women only form 12% of the scientific, engineering or technology industry or NCG's posts.

Too difficult to call really.

Yes.

I love the idea that it might be 'fair' to 'aim' to get 12% of women presenting, and just hope that'd somehow magically correct the other larger unfairness. Because, of course, it'd be totally unfair for a disproportionate number of women to be presenters .... good lord, man, it'd be almost as if we were allowing them to be as disproportionately well-represented as the men are in the actual subject!

LRD

It's always tricky with this kind of thing as some people have more interest in partners and are more resourceful. However, I can honestly say that I do not know if/who these women are with:

Judi Dench
Helen Mirren
Julie Walters
Emma Thompson (although I did know she was married to Kenneth Branagh)
Delia Smith
Alison Goldfrapp
Kate Humble

Perhaps I am particularly out of touch but I genuinely do not know if these people are even single.

Yep, fair point. I didn't even know any of them were presenters but I will look them up. I am dead chuffed about Judi Dench though, I think she is utterly fantastic.

You don't know who Judi Dench was married to? I'm quite surprised by that, as it was a very famous partnership (until his death, sadly).

All I know is that he sent her red roses every year, which I thought was absolutely lovely. I remember hearing her talk about it in an interview and he came across as a totally lovely bloke who she obviously still missed hugely.

But then, I'm obviously not terribly up-to-date on what she's been doing recently!

Of course!

But, you know, it strikes me this isn't quite the same thing? Is he an 'invisible husband'? It sounds as if he is very well known in his own right, whereas she is more 'invisible'.

Sorry, LRD, that was to FamilyGuy, not you. I love Judi as well.

I actually know quite a few on list Must be a shameless celeb stalker

*she in the last line being Milinovich, obvs, not Dench.

It's interesting, isn't it - there's that idea that women are often part of a great partnership (that 'behind every great man' thing), but I think it's quite rare for a woman to be very famous and her husband unknown.

Eg., Greg Wise and Branagh are (obviously) both people I've heard of. I'd not heard of Taylor Hackford (great name), but he's obviously important.

I'm completely off-subject here so feel free to ignore ... but how many famous women have husbands who take on the role that traditionally women took on, and do the 'support' side of a famous career? Oddly enough, the one that springs to mind is Leo Woolf, but then, he had a sparkling career too and just managed to be pretty supportive alongside that (AFAIK).

No, Michael Williams most definitely was not an invisible husband. It's just that his wife was probably a more famous actress than he was an actor. I'm not sure that the concept of invisible husband actually exists at all.

I've always thought of the invisible wife syndrome to not be purely in terms of celebrity - although in the case of Mrs BRian Cox she obviously mainly attributed it to his fame.

I think the invisible wife thing is indicative to women being sidelined in society in general - and here we get back to the topic that the op wanted to discuss.

I think the 'sidelining' of women in society as a whole, becomes more apparent when a woman gets married. She then, esp if she has children, is in danger of becoming this 'invisible' force behind the man. Of contributing to his success, but from 'behind the scenes' I'm thinking particularly of the phrase 'Behind every great man lies a great woman' here.

indicative of*

I think that's true, running - that it's general, I mean.

I've noticed it's surprisingly common to find people talk over me to DH - I've just bought a car from someone who tried very hard to address all his comments to DH despite knowing DH can't drive, wasn't buying the car, and wasn't selling the car we traded in. It was very odd.

Have you read 'Brother of the More Famous Jack'? There's a wonderful bit in there where the main character is in the gynae office discussing her fertility problems and the doctor is continually talking over her head to her partner about her malfunctioning womb. And she ends up idly pondering whether a man would ever talk over another man's head to his wife about an incompetent penis.

Keep xposting with you here LRD.

I think it's a very interesting topic. Taylor Hackford is very successful in his own right, and I doubt he finds himself sidelined (in the way that Gia M describes) because he is married to the super famous Dame Helen. I think that is the point exactly.

Ha another xpost

Sorry! I'll shut up for a bit. I agree re. Hackford (just going off wiki).

It is definitely my posts that are more depressing. LRD, every response so far has been a snarky, sniping comment rather than trying to discuss whatever is posted. Twelve per cent was a starting point for a discussion, not an excuse for you to try to exercise sarcasm.

Thanks for the article, Casey. To be honest, Cox doesn't come across terribly well as a human being if he doesn't even notice his wife being ignored in business meetings etc. How sad for her.

I think though that even when you take presenting ability out of the equation, men seem to get opportunities in media that women don't - if you look at the three original presenters from Embarrassing Illnesses, who were all unknowns when they began and were all good on TV, my impression is that it is Christian Jessen who has emerged most strongly from that show and seems to be all over the place, relative to Dawn Harper and Pixie McKenna.

To go back to what the OP was saying, I agree that having a feminist epiphany can be a really difficult experience especially if the people closest to you don't get it. I had mine about two years ago and since then I have been walking around in a permanent state of rage. The upside is that this seems to have happened to an awful lot of women I know recently, so perhaps we are on the verge of a big feminist revival?