I don't know where to start...

[StuntGirl]

Please excuse this long, disjointed post. I'm sure everything I write here will be obvious, and old news to everyone here, but its a recent thing I'm struggling to deal with.

I've always considered myself a feminist, in that I believed in equal rights for women. I thought it was inherently wrong to discriminate based on gender, and I challenged it where I came across it. I have however, never been particularly active with regards to feminism. I've always known we live in a male dominated society, I've always known women can be discriminated against, I've always known women still face struggles based on simply being women and I've always challenged it where I can but for the most part I suppose I've been fairly passive. But for some reason, very recently, every small injustice has screamed out at me. I'm noticing, with increasing irritation, the unequal representation of the sexes in the media, the unequal opportunities presented to men vs women, the gaping inequality in family life.

A few weeks ago I was watching QI. It suddenly dawned on me the entire panel was male.
Just before Christmas we were watching Michael McIntyre's Comedy Roadshow, and about a quarter of the way into it I realised every performer had been male.
I recently read an article in the Guardian about female representation in film, and was introduced to the Bechdel test. I was astonished to read what a huge percentage of films don't pass this ridiculously simple test.
Last night I watched a Horizon programme on asteroids, and was saddened to notice that not a single female scientist was questioned in the programme at all.
Today we went to watch The Hobbit, which I noticed also did not pass the Bechdel test.

I commented on Facebook last night about the Horizon programme, and was absolutely expecting one or more people to make some lame sexist joke and I was proven right on the very first comment. Depressingly, out of all the comments in the discussion that followed, the one that got the most likes was that initial 'joke'.

Today after the film I commented to my brother about the Bechdel test, and was surprised to find he scoffed at me over applying this test to a book written so long ago. I tried to explain I wasn't thinking about The Hobbit in isolation, but as part of media in general. He scoffed some more, rolled his eyes, and made me feel like I was being a whiny bitch by bringing it up at all. My own brother! A man I have always considered intelligent, respectful, liberal and a feminist himself.

I think the thing that has saddened me most about my recent, well, epiphany I suppose, is the reactions from the males in my life when I raise the topic. Men I have up until now considered, like my brother, to be intelligent, respectful men who want an equal society. I guess my eyes are opening to how much that may not be true, how much they are indoctrinated themselves.

The only male who has shared my reactions has been my boyfriend. I have seriously never loved him so much as over these past few days.

I guess what I'm saying is, I need a place to discuss these issues, to understand them and speak to people who share the same beliefs. I need to find out more, and do more. Can anyone point me in the direction of some good feminist resources, or communities? Until now I've held a passive interest in feminism, and somehow suddenly that doesn't seem enough.

[FamilyGuy22]

I am not so naive to think it doesn't exist. Of course it does. However, there's a big difference between the recent dumping of over age women from TV (totally outrageous) and second guessing why women are under-represented on shows.

[runningforthebusinheels]

Of course it's no coincidence - the default setting of the media, be it news or entertainment is 'male'.

Three quarters of the top jobs in Newsrooms are held by men. Two thirds of reporters are men. Two thirds of acting jobs are for men.

And thank you, FamilyGuy, for bringing up the subject of the dumping of women due to their age - such an excellent example of obvious sexism in the media.

[zippey]

Here is a link to Kims episode of QI ehere they talk about why there arent more women in it

[FamilyGuy22]

If its a default choice then it's an unconscious choice and therefore oppression is not a factor. So where is the problem?

Unless producers are making a conscious decision but Ria has already discounted that a few posts back.

I raised the point about the dumping of women because its a clear example of wrongdoing. Paying women less for the same job is also wrong, as is promoting a male instead of a woman when she is clearly more talented etc.

However, saying that two thirds of positions are for men is an assumption. As I posted in another thread, HR departments vet all cv's and oversee equality issues and promotions etc. yet HR is a female dominated industry and the first line in ensuring positive discrimination is auctioned in the workplace.

Incidentally, as I type we have a documentary about queen Victoria on BBC2 with a female prof being interviewed. One Born Every Minute is on ITV and a film about a kick ass superhero woman on CH5. Carve Her
Name with Pride is on BBC4, which is a film about a woman secret agent in WWII. A real war hero of her era.

[FamilyGuy22]

Actioned not auctioned. Sorry, bloody iPad.

[AbigailAdams]

running, yes men being the default is the problem and it isn't a coincidence. It is positive discrimination.

[runningforthebusinheels]

Abigail, FamilyGuy thinks it unconscious - so that makes it ok

I'm not sure it's 'unconscious', or even subconscious, but even if it was, I wouldn't see that as a valid excuse.

[runningforthebusinheels]

However, I am now watching Carve Her Name With Pride

A great film. Thanks for the tip-off, FamilyGuy.

[FamilyGuy22]

runningforthebusinheels

LOL, glad I was of some use in the end Hope you enjoy the film.

But just before I go to bed....

If it's positive discrimination then it's ok for women but not for men. Fine, I get that because the industry is male dominated. I may not agree with positive discrimination but I can accept that some sort of balance may be necessary.

If it's unconscious then I don't know how it can't be anything but ok? Equality is about eliminating oppression/prejudice. If someone acts in good faith and without malice then oppression/prejudice fail to exist. It's all about intent, isn't it?

You are suggesting that it is wrong to innocently select a man over a woman for a job. I appreciate the 'innocent' bit is what's under question but I stand by my opinion that there is nothing wrong with an innocent selection. Anything else is not gender equality.

[RiaUnderTheMistletoe]

If you are taught all your life that one group of people is better than another of course it will bias your opinions, even without you noticing it. It's called conditioning.

[runningforthebusinheels]

She was, Kim. Beautifully acted and directed film. Brings tears to my eyes every time I watch it.

That'll just be me being over-emotional and hormonal, though. Being a woman and all. (reference to the other thread raging on in FWR atm)

[runningforthebusinheels]

FamilyGuy - I don't agree that it's unconscious though - as I have already said.

The default setting being 'male' - where do you make the leap that it's 'unconscious'?

[RiaUnderTheMistletoe]

That was probably me running I meant the majority of tv makers aren't (I hope) deliberately discriminating against women for the sake of it, though they may well believe that their show will do better with more men in it, for instance 'women laugh more at men'.

[runningforthebusinheels]

"I don't think anyone has said the under-representation of women is due to producers thinking 'women belong in the kitchen, not on my show'. The problem is that straight, white and male are often the default settings for anyone on TV, and it shouldn't be, because the population is not overwhelmingly straight, white and especially not male. Suggesting it's a coincidence that men are greatly over-represented in the media seems at best very naive."

This post Ria? I totally agree with it.

I don't agree with FamilyGuy that it's ok/excusable.

[mcmooncup]

On the tv thing.........I rarely watch tv anymore........Homeland about covers me but happened to watch the Royle Family Xmas special and there was an actual rape joke. I'm surprised there has not been uproar! The entire programme took the piss out of Barbara, but Jim Royle, on discussing sex with his wife said this...........

'I'd never get me leg over if Babs had to agree to it.'

[ChristmasFayrePhyllis]

If it's unconscious then I don't know how it can't be anything but ok? Equality is about eliminating oppression/prejudice. If someone acts in good faith and without malice then oppression/prejudice fail to exist. It's all about intent, isn't it?

No, I don't think it is about individual intent. It's about the cumulative effect those individual decisions have, which is that women (and people of color, people with disabilities, gay people) become, culturally, invisible - and this then conditions people even more to think that men are the default human beings. It's a vicious circle. I don't think it's an exaggeration to call it cultural femicide.

If you are a booker or producer for one of those shows, and you fail to consider inviting women, or don't make it a priority to have women (and not just the same small set of women over and over again) well-represented on the show, then you are contributing to the problem. In a passive way, perhaps, but nevertheless your choices, however unconsciously you make them, are still part of the problem, however much you would personally abhor sexism. It's about practices and behaviours, not about how pure of heart anyone is individually.

Part of the problem is that lots and lots of people fundamentally can't (won't?) make this distinction when it comes to themselves or people they like. They like to believe that they are good people who aren't capable of something as awful as sexism or racism, and thus it doesn't occur to them to examine whether they are part of some systemic form of discrimination. This is why you get the lefty liberal men who are so convinced of their own politico-philosophical virtue that they don't actually question their own privilege or practices. But because of the cumulative societal effect it has, I am just as concerned by this passive sexism as by the guy who is openly misogynistic and kicks the shit out of his woman partner.

If someone claims that they are not racist (and quite possibly truly believes it), but fails to stop unconsciously engaging in a racist practice, I don't think we should hesitate to call this a form of racism, and the same goes for sexism.

I'm not interested in the fact that otherwise nice people's feelings might get bruised when they realise they personally engage in sexist behaviour. I'm interested in the liberation of women from all of this shit.

[LRDtheFeministDragon]

Sorry, going back a bit and repeating, but I think this is the nub of it:

'Irrespective of your opinions I am almost 100% certain that you cannot categorically say that the producer of QI specifically selects men over women for sexist reasons. Nether can you say that for any other of the examples given (Horizon or Michael McIntyre). I certainly can't so could not make the giant leap and say that there is a sexist agenda present.'

I don't know the producer of QI, so you are correct, we can't say.

But you're not using logic when you jump from that to claiming that, therefore, you know there is no 'sexist agenda' present.

Of course there is a sexist agenda. How else could you possibly explain the fact there are fewer women? It may not be the producer's conscious choice, but you've got it arse-backwards to go from the individual's conscious choice to the underlying agenda.

[LRDtheFeministDragon]

I also completely fail to see why unconscious sexism is less damaging.

Surely it is worse?

You can correct someone's conscious prejudices, or argue against them, but it's much harder to shake something that is so ingrained it has ceased to be a consciously-reinforced prejudice.

[mcmooncup]

I think it's quite overt sexism.

The reason women aren't booked is because they are 'not as funny as men'.

[FamilyGuy22]

runningforthebusinheels

Actually, after seeing that youtube clip I concede that there are fewer women on QI for the reasons given in the video. Whether that research is valid or conclusive is another matter but I guess we now know that there are purposely fewer women than men for "entertainment" reasons. Whether there is a sexist undercurrent or the producer genuinely believes the research we don't know but it's possible he could be using the research to give him reason to just throw in a few token females.

Re: the default thing. Default setting to me is an automatic action/event. Thus thoughtless. But you're right, if someone is conciously making a default choice then this is bad.

RiaUnderTheMistletoe

Are you asian? I am an ethnic minority and am well aware that asian males are raised to believe they are superior. BTW I was not and my daughters are not conditioned in any way. However, I do notice with my asian friends that their wives are generally subservient. Now they are living here though they are very clear that their daughters will not be conditioned either.

ChristmasFayrePhyllis

That's an interesting POV. Thanks

I guess we just see it differently but are getting into an area where it's not exactly black/white. I don't see it as a cumulative thing as that, to me, is a generalisation. It may be true to say that men are sexist but this detracts from the many that aren't. So who are you working against? Males en masse or a specific group? The trouble is, by trying to liberate women in the media you cannot use a cover all and bulldoze the innocent.

To me it's ridiculous to enforce a 50/50 split for the sake of an ideal. If you would indulge me for a moment; let's just say that the QI research was 100% and that women do actually laugh less at women. What does this say. One question that springs to mind is why women don't laugh as much at their own sex but that would be another PhD. If this really were true though, then are you suggesting that you would produce a show, knowing it would be less entertaining just to make sure that equality was satisfied. To me that's insane as surely the objective for any such show is to entertain. So then, what about non white males/females and other sexual orientations? Julian Clary was on the show but was he a token gesture? I guess having Stephen Fry as the presenter already ensures some balance, as did Clare Balding.

LRDtheFeministDragon

I suppose I'm guilty of seeing more good in people than is justified. To me an innocent act is exactly that. All one can do is to educate and hope history does not repeat itself. What else can you do? Beat someone into feminist ways?

If, in good will/nature, you act and it is deemed to be sexist/racist then I still fail to see how you can chastise someone for their actions. I certainly would not but maybe I have more liberal views.

But I can see that it is the whole "good will/nature" bit that you don't believe exists and that's fair enough.

[runningforthebusinheels]

The default setting (whether conscious or unconscious ) for the token female on QI seems to be Jo Brand.

McMooncup - I can't believe the Royle Family aired a rape joke I didn't actually watch it (but usually do). I was going to try and catch it on iplayer, don't think I'll bother.

[doyouwantfrieswiththat]

Why do women laugh less at other women? -

For me, many women comedians seem uncertain/nervous in the spotlight, it may be transferrencet but I feel uncomfortable watching it, just as I feel uncomfortable when I watch male comedians lose it on stage (Rhod Gilbert -thinks shouting makes his jokes funnier, Russell Kane-seems to be having a public breakdown, I find both these guys smart & funny when they calm down & relax - I'm sure they'll be pleased to know! )

I like Sandi Toksvig, Ronni Ancona, Victoria Coren, Sarah Millican, Zoe Lyons, the late great Linda Smith, Katherine Ryan... there are plenty of good observational comedians who are woman

On panel shows I've often noticed that men bounce jokes off each other in a laddish way and it takes a strong woman to join in with that when they're in a minority. It's like a boys' club, or the cliquey mums at school.

Apparently I'm hilarious in RL, but I still let my brothers finish my jokes if they're around...... Like many woman I have been conditioned to take a back seat. I also worry that some male friends may mistake humorous badinage for flirting, I assume that's why they look so scared.

[grimbletart]

I've worked in pretty much male environments except in one job where it was the reverse.

I've roared with laughter in the pub with my male workmates.

But honestly, the funniest moments I remember were when, in my female dominated job, we got together late on a Friday for drink before going home. I can still recall weeping with laughter at the repartee, observational humour and the sheer "ain't life a blast" humour of those women only moments.