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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Would anyone like to join in an effort to convince retailers to stop categorizing toys by gender?

999 replies

OneHandWavingFree · 19/11/2012 00:06

Following on from this thread and similar ones, a few of us are interested in discussing ways to send a message to retailers that it is not acceptable to designate 'boys' and 'girls' toy aisles which reinforce the message that science and adventure are "boys stuff", while girls should be primarily occupied with looking 'sexy' or practicing for domestic drudgery.

The first steps might be to draft a letter and identify a few retailers to target for an email campaign. Other ideas of how to get the message across are very welcome too, though.

Would anyone like to join in?

OP posts:
Himalaya · 20/11/2012 22:37

OK building the survey now. Will finish it tomorrow.
Anyone who wants to beta test it (I.e. run through the questions without visiting any stores) PM me.

Grimma - I think the scores thing can work. Either by normalising the overall score (e.g out of 5, 10 or 15 depending on how many different channels they have) or by having different categories "most sexist web retailer", "most sexist store layout" etc...

PeggyCarter · 20/11/2012 22:37

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

MurderOfGoths · 20/11/2012 22:40

Think you'll like this Grin

I'm going to hide here now and pretend I didn't read another post talking about this thread as if we are all overreacting and reading too much into things. Thank god for you sane people!

I'm going into town tomorrow so will make some notes if I go into any stores with kids toys in.

PeggyCarter · 20/11/2012 22:42

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Message withdrawn at poster's request.

GrimmaTheNome · 20/11/2012 22:42

think LadyK's suggestion has merit (how many toys of each type) but wouldn't that mean that scores weren't comparable between big stores and small ones?

could do a ratios 10 boys science:2 girls =-5 points. 30 boys 'creative' :80 girls -2.7 points

Himalaya · 20/11/2012 22:51

One idea could be to pick ten iconic items:

Chemistry set
Kitchen
Doctors suit/set
Construction toys e.g. K-nex
Nobility dress up (prince/princess)
Baby buggy
Electronics kit
Craft set
Cleaning equipment (brooms, washing machine)

(... Say....)

And ask people to indicate whether they are signed/labelled for one gender, colour coded for one gender or unisex.

That way you could give each store a mark out of 10, and also be able to say 8 of the 10 biggest toy retailers are giving out the message that little girls should not role play as doctors and 6 out of 10 discourage boys to role play as fathers etc......

Alameda · 20/11/2012 22:57

now that I have stopped laughing at 'taking equality too far' ! . . . the Lego ad in littletyga's link is exactly how I remember growing up in the 70s, especially the practical clothes that could be handed down to or from brothers or sisters

but what a decade to look back to for inspiration in the quest against sex role stereotyping, wtf

MurderOfGoths · 20/11/2012 23:04

Oh yes, I like that idea!

Definitely worth aiming for toys that can be seen as encouraging/discouraging careers and aspirations.

I guess what we need is

  • where the toys on the list above are placed (boys/girls aisle)?
  • whether the aisles are labelled?
  • are the aisles labelled as such or just implied?
  • is there a neutral aisle that isn't baby stuff?
  • when items are in both aisles, what are the differences?
MummyCoolski · 20/11/2012 23:05

Sorry if it's already been pointed out, but Lego have taken a step backward with their pinkifying. Interesting article with vintage Lego ad here:

thesocietypages.org/socimages/2009/07/17/vintage-lego-ad/

I think another factor from the old days was that clothes & toys were expected to last & be handed down amongst siblings. A girl might have pretty dresses for parties but nost of the time would wear jeans & jumpers. Now clothes (& to some extent, toys) are so cheap, it isn't necessary. My DS is only four months, but I'd put a future sister of his in most of his clothes, they are so lovely & jolly colours.

OneHandWavingFree · 20/11/2012 23:41

I kind of like the idea of rating stores, but I'm a little worried that if there are too many criteria, and if we include assessments of whether 'boy' and 'girl' aisles are implied even if not labeled overtly, we are going to lose sight of the simple, direct ask of retailers:

Please stop labelling toys as "For Boys" and "For Girls"

If they group like with like and label by type of play rather than gender, "domestic roleplay" for example, there will be a big row of baby dolls and prams and kitchens. And most of those items will be pink, because the larger problem, of children being socialised toward particular roles, will still exist, and because the toy companies will keep churning out pink crap because it sells (or sells twice as much of the same toy). So yes, there will still be a dreaded wall of pink, and it will be implied that it's a 'girl's aisle', and that sucks. But it won't say "Girls Toys" over it, and to me, that's an important enough step to make it our focus. Equally, of course, the non-pink aisle (where all the other colours live!) will no longer say "Boys Toys."

I know that all of it is important. But can we just start with the most obvious, overt, and offensive manifestation of it in the shops / on the websites? Can we just ask them directly for one simple thing: Take down the bloody big signs that tell shoppers and children that some toys are just for boys, and others are just for girls. It's not true, it's damaging, and it's turning a lot of us off shopping in stores that do it.

OP posts:
GrimmaTheNome · 20/11/2012 23:55

Yes - I think you're right. And websites - avoid 'Boys' and 'Girls' divisions
and make sure that if you must have gender filtering it doesn't leave boys without arty stuff and girls with only pink 'science'. For instance, Toys R Us ,selecting the Technology and gadgets age 8-11, there are 134 'boys' and 165 'girls' - I think that the girls is all the 'boys' plus some pink stuff. That's so much better than the debenhams science example from upthread.

Himalaya · 21/11/2012 07:59

Onehandwavingfree -

Yes I think the headline ask is to take down the signs but ultimately I think the goal has to be to get companies to recognise and promote the idea that a child's sex should have no bearing on the opportunities for play and learning they have.

This thinking is hard wired into the way most companies work. Take a look at this list . most have seperate buyers for boys and girls toys. This means these decision makers are driven to sell more pink sparky / khaki rigid stuff along gender lines - it's not in their incentive structure to care whether this branding turns girls off science and construction toys and
boys off kitchens and art sets.

Ultimately I think we need a change in thinking so that this becomes as unacceptable as having women's jobs and men's jobs and different terms of employment.

The Argos catalogue for instance has removed the explicit page headings but still clearly group toys by gender on pink and blue pages bookended by clothing lines which make very clear section is which. They are not grouping brands together (e.g. Lego friends comes under "playsets" the rest of Lego under "construction"). Lo and behold when you pick up your toy it comes with a sticker on it that says 'Boys Toy' or 'Girls Toy'. There is a category called "role play" (dolls etc...) but nerf guns and super hero suits are somewhere else (isn't that role play?).

I think taking the signs down is important, but kids pick up the message about girls toys and boys toys long before they can read.

GrimmaTheNome · 21/11/2012 09:32

That list is depressing, Him - I'd not even thought about it but I suppose it would be like that in many organisations. It would be interesting to see how much the gender divide in the buyers feeds into what we see on the shelves/web/catalog (and where we see it).

3bunnies · 21/11/2012 09:50

I'm on. I don't mind boys playing with 'boy' toys and girls with 'girl' toys, but would rather they were more gender neutral so children can feel free to play with what they want. Most of our toys are gender neutral. The one which REALLY annoyed me is the ELC globe, as I was buying it for a dd, wouldn't I like to have it in pink? Ffs I do not want any child of mine, boy or girl thinking that the land is dark pink and the sea is light pink. There is no need (except maybe on Mars) for a pink globe.

AndIfATenTonTruck · 21/11/2012 10:42

just searched John Lewis for 'girls science' then 'boys science' [grr]

dragons?? fucking dragons???

AndIfATenTonTruck · 21/11/2012 10:50

I just had another thought, on the dragon point. I wonder what the effect on sales of pink princessy stuff would be if it was in an aisle called "myths and legends" that graduated up by age-appeal to d&d, warhammer etc. The association doesn't really hold water does it, but I would think there would be a significant sector of parents who would avoid quite a lot of the princess fantasy if they thought their child would 'grow up goth'...

CheddarOnToast · 21/11/2012 11:02

I agree with this.

I was in the toyshop with DD(4) to choose some Playmobil furniture for her dolls house. She pounced on the set she wanted (a living room set, with a fish tank). Then she noticed that the box was blue and that some of the other boxes of furniture sets were pink. She looked regretful and said "Oh dear, I think this one is for little boys, I have to have this one", and picked up a different living room set in a pink box (without the fish tank that she had so wanted).

We talked (again) about how boys can have pink things, and girls can have blue ones, and that they just have different coloured boxes to look more colourful, but anyone can choose whichever one they want. So we got the fish tank one.

It really annoys me when my daughter thinks there are some things she can't have because they are for boys.

And on a related note, I am also annoyed by clothes stereotyping - just looked at the Tesco clothing website and it says something like "For gorgeous girls and active boys..." FFS!

GrimmaTheNome · 21/11/2012 11:09

Oh Cheddar, that's awful...that she should ever have such a thought put into her head, and because there are parents who'd have agreed or not bothered to set her straight. Glad she got her fish tank.

Thisisaeuphemism · 21/11/2012 12:15

Yy, cheddar, I am noticing this with my 3 year old DD. "I can't have this because its for boys." - about a car!
4 year old DS had been unaware of any limits of gender on him - until school - and now he comes out with all sorts of stuff.

Himalaya · 21/11/2012 12:16

Andifatentontruck - re 'myths and legends' aisle. I like it.

Not so much that parents would be put off princess stuff because of growing up goth, but more girls might get into warhammer and strategy games!

AndIfATenTonTruck · 21/11/2012 13:08

thanks himalaya - I was bring negative about that association and you have found a much better linkage. I guess the paradox for me (mum of boy) is that I don't want to disparage the things which girls presently flock towards, because that is projecting value judgements on those sorts of things. And I do judge - toys prepare our children for adulthood, and last time I looked there were not that many princess jobs going.

What I do want is to be able to have as many good female role models for my son as there are males. It should be just as appropriate for him to identify with Wendy (in her project manager role) as Bob (the tradesman.

My little bit of anarchy is to do searches on toy websites for girls toys (etc, subdivided as you like ) and then only click through on the real science ones, or the proper standard lego. they do follow what people eventually buy after searches. I may write a snottogram to JL about their mis-genre of dragon craft into girl science right now actually. That could be a mistake...

LurcioLovesFrankie · 21/11/2012 13:29

Just did the girls science/boys science search on John Lewis's website - apparently girls do not like microscopes, telescopes, space rockets, internal combustion engines, ... but we do like bath bomb kits. How the bloody hell did I end up as a theoretical physicist, I ask myself? And would I have managed it growing up now.

ashesgirl · 21/11/2012 14:18

Just popping again briefly to leave a link to this excellent video on Lego and genderisation.

She talks in Part 2 of this about how Lego's gendered approach to marketing is a very recent thing. And that when we were growing up, boys and girls played with the same Lego toys.

ashesgirl · 21/11/2012 14:18

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