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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Would anyone like to join in an effort to convince retailers to stop categorizing toys by gender?

999 replies

OneHandWavingFree · 19/11/2012 00:06

Following on from this thread and similar ones, a few of us are interested in discussing ways to send a message to retailers that it is not acceptable to designate 'boys' and 'girls' toy aisles which reinforce the message that science and adventure are "boys stuff", while girls should be primarily occupied with looking 'sexy' or practicing for domestic drudgery.

The first steps might be to draft a letter and identify a few retailers to target for an email campaign. Other ideas of how to get the message across are very welcome too, though.

Would anyone like to join in?

OP posts:
GrimmaTheNome · 22/11/2012 15:55

fuzz...well I suppose if you might only let your child take away half the plastic tat from McD simply as a means of plastic tat limitation.

nickelbabeuntiladvent · 22/11/2012 15:57

smyths toys is refreshing in this way.
it categorizes by age and interest, but not by gender.

i think there's somewhere that you can choose boy or girl and the stuff is the same in each one Grin

fuzzpig · 22/11/2012 16:00

Possibly, but why say it's because it's for boys? Why not just say "no, you have enough toys".

I'm sure Burger King used to actually ask 'boy or girl' when you ordered your kids meal, when I was little.

GrimmaTheNome · 22/11/2012 16:10

nickel - good! I couldn't see a gender filter at all. If you're determined enough to type 'girl' into the search bar then you'll get pinked, but you have to do it yourself deliberately.

Himalaya · 22/11/2012 16:16

Survey should be ready to launch tomorrow.

Apologies for the delay, it's all Onehandwavingfree's fault Grin

5madthings · 22/11/2012 16:37

i mentioned this to someone today adn they didnt get it at all :( i told them about the debenhams thing and the schience kits for girls boys, apparently we should be grateful that they do any science kits for girls, doesnt matter that they are limited and crap perfume/bath bombs its better than nothing at all....bashes head on keyboard.

TerrariaMum · 22/11/2012 17:16

I'm in. DH was a bit shocked when he went to buy DD some new sturdy shoes. He bought her a nice comfy pair of brown shoes which she can run and jump and climb in. When I met him at the shop, the assistant was just in the process of asking him whether he was sure he wanted those ones and not the pink, delicate girly ones.

I also am in favour of a Myths and Legends section for the same reason as someone said above; to get more girls feeling they can enjoy strategy games and/or monster hunting.

GrimmaTheNome · 22/11/2012 17:46

My DD noticed a page of pink lego I'd managed to coerce out of the smythes site so I had to explain to her what I was doing. Comments included 'I always preferred the 'boys' toys'...'didn't go into the pink section'...'girl + science search, well of course that should give everything plus the bath bombs, that's just sensible'.

PeggyCarter · 22/11/2012 18:31

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

SomersetONeil · 22/11/2012 18:34

It seems we've caught something of the zeitgeist. Waking up this morning, I see that one of my UK FB friends has liked and publicised this page... I hope the link works - you may have to log in.

Next are coming in for a bit of a hard time, judging by all the comments ... Wink It seems a fair number of people do 'get it'. :)

GrimmaTheNome · 22/11/2012 19:12

It worked, and doesn't need a login to see the photo(I don't do FB). I know which half of the display DD would have looked at.

HalloweenNameChange · 22/11/2012 19:27

It does show a total lack of imagination doesn't it? I couldn't possibly know what to buy.... and my son/ daughter couldn't possibly know what to ask for... if it didn't come off a fucking shelf labeled boy or girl. Is anyone that stupid?

HalloweenNameChange · 22/11/2012 19:28

(response to your instagram, which is disgusting btw somerset)

MurderOfGoths · 22/11/2012 21:48

" if it didn't come off a fucking shelf labeled boy or girl. Is anyone that stupid?"

Unfortunately :(

nickelbabeuntiladvent · 23/11/2012 12:42

Just catching up from last night:

I wonder if we need to target that list of "boys' toys buyers" and "girls' toys buyers"?
I noticed that the top two at least were a man for boys and a woman for girls.
that's taking gender stereotyping into adulthood, which is not fair.

Maybe we need to contact them and ask why it's doen that way, and how they think they can help us to change that.
If their roles were categorized into "role play" or "domestic play" or "action" or "science and crafts" or "jobs and dressing up" like that, then their roles would be easier to perform without the genderization.

maxmillie · 23/11/2012 14:48

Nothing more to add just "Yay Mumsnet" and "go, go go!"

ConsiderCasey · 23/11/2012 17:17

Am looking forward to doing a bit of sleuthing tomorrow. Hope I don't get chucked out of any shops for suspicious behaviour!

LadyKinbote · 23/11/2012 18:26

Me too! Have we decided on criteria though? Anything specific I should look out for? Are we taking a shop each?

OneHandWavingFree · 23/11/2012 19:47

Sorry I?ve been away from the thread ? I am a transplanted Yank and yesterday was Thanksgiving so I?ve been busy with that :) . Himalaya and I have exchanged a couple of PMs on the survey, but I said I?d share my thoughts here too because I think it would be great if more people were involved in feedback and in contributing to the final version.

Big thanks to Himalya for being the one to get us started with an action plan rather than just an idea to do something. The idea of using the womanpower of MN to survey lots of stores in different locations, and to track where certain iconic items are shelved, was a stroke of genius.

Have people (other than the few who requested PMs) had a chance to look at a draft of the survey before we finalise it? Is there any reason not to post a link to it on the thread so that everyone can weigh in if they want to?

I do still have the one main concern that I?ve expressed upthread, and that?s the view that by not keeping it to clearly marked ?boys? and ?girls? aisles / sections / web search filters, we will make the findings much less objective and therefore much less powerful.

The current draft of the survey asks:

Were there obvious sections for ?boys? and ?girls? toys in store?

Yes with signs

Yes but without signs (clue: if you are not sure ask a shop assistant, or your child)

No, toys were arranged by theme / function

See, I think that the question should simply be ?Were there signs indicating which toys were for girls, and which were for boys?. I don?t think it?s useful to include a subjective assessment of a section being clearly meant for girls or boys, if it?s not labeled in that way, because we are only inviting a response of ?if you think that pink is just for girls or Lego is just for boys, that?s your own hang-up, nobody?s saying they can?t go into that aisle, blah blah blah?.

I know that when I see a ?wall of pink? in a toy store I think ?grrr?. ?girl?s section?, and I know that other MNers interested in taking part in this will, too. But however right our judgment may be, it?s still our subjective judgment and therefore should not be part of a survey for gathering facts.

Besides, if the retailer groups toys by function and puts all the domestic roleplay items together, then there is going to be a row of dollies and prams and kitchens. And because manufacturers and advertisers are also a major part of the problem here, most of those things will be packaged in pink. So there will be a wall of pink, which we?ll assess as clearly a girls? section even without a sign. You can already anticipate the retailer arguing that they?re doing what we want, grouping by function, and the problem isn?t them at all, it?s the fact that all the play kitchens arrive in pink boxes; take it up with the manufacturer. I really think it will weaken our argument.

Whereas if the aisle is actually labeled ?Girls? Toys? or ?Boy?s Toys?, then it?s much more straightforward to say it?s the retailer?s responsibility that those signs are there, and we?re asking them to take them down because they perpetuate damaging stereotypes and assumptions.

I think we have to anticipate the argument from the other side and try to conduct a survey that isn?t going to give them that kind of ammunition.

There are enough retailers who do explicitly label sections as ?Boys Toys? and ?Girls Toys? that we could do a really effective piece of work without including those that don?t say it explicitly.

Besides, if we?re not sure and ask the shop assistant or child, and the shop assitant or child says ?yes that?s the girls section over there, with all the pink stuff and the dolls and kitchens?, then are we measuring how the retailer is labeling things, or how conditioned members of society (such as the assistant or the child) already are to read those items as ?for girls?, even with no sign present?

That said, if the consensus (and it would be great to have some discussion of the survey on thread, so that there is a sense of consensus) is that we should include gendered sections that are not explicitly marked as such, then I think another category has to be added into question 4.

Question 4 is the brilliant one about where certain iconic items are displayed. Things like chemistry sets and doll buggies. The choices are:

In the ?boys? section or with a label ?for boys?
In the ?girls? section, or with a label ?for girls?
In a common section with ?girls? and ?boys? version (e.g. pink / blue)
In a common section / unisex
Not in store

I think it will be a majorly missed opportunity to have people recording this information, without the final results showing clearly whether chemistry sets and kitchens were stocked in sectioned with signs explicitly stating that they are for one gender or the other. There?s just far too much subjectivity in saying that something was ?in the boys section? just because all the boxes were blue. It muddies the water as to whether the ?blue is for boys, pink is for girls? assumption is the retailer?s, or the surveyor?s.

I?ve probably said enough. Sorry about the length and repetitiveness of the post and for the delay in weighing in. And I really don?t want to take anything away from the work that Himalaya has done here, I think it?s fantastic.

To summarise:

Can we please have more posters' input on the survey, possibly post a link on the thread?

Can we please think again about whether it?s wise to include sections that we perceived to be gendered, but that are not explicitly marked as such?

And if we do include sections that aren?t explicitly marked, can we please separate out the ?marked for boys? and ?perceived to be for boys? options in Question 4?

OP posts:
OneHandWavingFree · 23/11/2012 20:04

puddlejumper if you're still around, I meant to say thanks for your response re: including Ireland.

I was in Tesco and Boots on Wednesday, and took photos of the toy aisles there. Both clearly labeled with signs for "Toys For Girls" / "Toys for Boys" in Tesco, and "Gifts for Boys" / "Gifts for Girls" in Boots :(

In Boots, all the Lego City and all of the Duplo - including the farm and zoo sets that my dd plays with constantly - were directly under the "Gifts for Boys" sign. In the Girls' section, there was a bag of pink MegaBlocks, and nothing else even remotely construction orientated. Lots and lots of makeup though.

OP posts:
LadyKinbote · 23/11/2012 20:22

I'd love to have a look at the survey and I agree that we should be looking for explicit signs at this point.

Himalaya · 23/11/2012 20:31

ok - i've changed question 4 options to

  1. In a package or on a shelf explicitly signposted for boys
  2. In a package or on a shelf explicitly signposted for girls
  3. Grouped with toys that appear targetted 'for boys' (but without explicit wording)
  4. Grouped with toys that appear targetted 'for girls' (but without explicit wording)
  5. In a common section with 'girls' and 'boys' version (e.g. pink/blue)
  6. In a common section/unisex, grouped with other toys of the same type e.g. role play, playsets etc...
  7. Not in store

Its a bit legalistic, but i think it covers all bases?

OneHandWavingFree · 23/11/2012 20:40

Hi Himalaya - would it be okay to link to the draft survey so that LadyKinbote and anyone else who wants to, could have a look?

I think the new #4 covers all the bases, as you say, but I'd still prefer if 3/4/5 were eliminated, because they rely on subjective judgments on what "appears targeted" to one gender or the other. We have a stronger case if we keep it objective.

OP posts:
PeggyCarter · 23/11/2012 20:42

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

GrimmaTheNome · 23/11/2012 20:47

Take your point about focussing on explicit labelling first.

Did anyone hear The Now Show on R4 - female comedian (don't know her name) dissing Lego Friends?