Anyone articulate why I don't like this?

[madwomanintheattic]

Just had an email from school letting me know that the grade fours are participating in two externally facilitated programmes - 'boy's council' and 'girl's circle'.

My teeth were itching at quite why the boys needed a council, and the girls got a circle, but I clicked on the link about these programmes, and it appears to be a whole industry here

I assume this is all for the best of intentions, but I am still uncomfortable that an organization supposed to be about breaking down gendered stereotypes uses 'council' and 'circle' in a gender exclusive manner (and that apparently the girls need friendship training, to prevent peer feuds).

Someone please have a rational look at this, and persuade me I'm overreacting. And it's All Good. It must be, right?

I guess the point may be that a good deal of male bonding seems to encompass devaluing women, which I think is a different issue - surely it would be better to engage with the other sex than have them in a separate meeting.

This looks like superstition-based bullshit to me and I would be protesting vigorously. Perhaps by marching up to the school and hitting the board of governers over the head with a copy of Delusions of Gender.

I wasn't dismissing conflict between girls at all. But obviously boys have peer feuds. There is plenty of bullying between boys and from boys to girls too. So why is it only girls being taught about relationships and "being nice" to each other? And as for online bullying there are plenty of high profile cases where girls have been bullied by boys and had photos distributed without their permission etc. My experience (anecdotal) is that male-dominated chat sites etc tend to be far harsher than the (very few) women dominated sites. As summerflower says there is a certain male bonding going on with objectifying and devaluing women. So surely we should be targetting ALL sources of bullying and peer pressure not just expecting the girls to deal with this shit.

That's a really interesting explanation, kritiq. And much less adversarial to point out the root cause, rather than focusing on the end result.

I get the impression that they are trying to broaden the definitions of masculinity, but I don't think I'm getting the same vibe towards femininity...

Coincidentally, this is running at the same as dd2's teacher is emailing me to give permission for social support. Dd2 does not meet the patriarchal definition of femininity, she has both a physical disability and is gifted, which leaves her at the bottom of the potential BFF pile. I'm pretty used to viewing this fact from a disability model, but hadn't really considered it from a patriarchal viewpoint... Hmm. For her it isn't feud or conflict (yet) just dismissal due to not fitting in.

This is an old thread so forgive the thread necromancy -

There is a link I would like to share and some further information regarding the "girl's circles" promoted by the organisation in the OP the One Circle Foundation

The link is here
<a class="break-all" href="https://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:OcXmaYedNZoJ:familycourtmatters.org/2012/09/17/where-the-pyramid-meets-the-circle-meets-the-trademarkr-pt-1/+&cd=12&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=uk&client=safari" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:OcXmaYedNZoJ:familycourtmatters.org/2012/09/17/where-the-pyramid-meets-the-circle-meets-the-trademarkr-pt-1/+&cd=12&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=uk&client=safari

I have not read the entire thing - it is very long - just skim read it, but a concerned person has put a lot of work into researching the MLM elements of the One Circle Foundation and I thought that readers would benefit from reading it.

From a skim read it is clear that the linked author's concerns about the OCF mirror serious concerns I have about various sinister cults using a MLM model to run "women's circles".

This is happening internationally and these women's circles are springing up amongst all kinds of religious, spiritual, therapy and cultic groups.

I do not believe that the OCF is the root and cause of all of the circles I am concerned about, however it is very interesting as it seems to be a significant branch of the tree .

I googled for the names of the founders of the OCF and the founders appear to be involved in message boards and websites linked to the Mormon aka LDS religious movement.

This is interesting as many MLM businesses started in Salt Lake City and were started by Mormon entrepreneurs.

There is also significant concern expressed in the skeptical community regarding some "troubled teen" residential schools run by Mormon entrepreneurs. I will find and link when I have a moment

Another concerning red flag is the cultural appropriation of First Nations and Native American ritual and symbolism that permeated the "girls circle" movement.

Another is the embracing of the prevalent, unquestioning, illogical transgender discourses with which we are all so familiar.

some further links for anyone interested

<a class="break-all" href="https://web.archive.org/web/20180831125030/onecirclefoundation.org/about_us.aspx" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">web.archive.org/web/20180831125030/onecirclefoundation.org/about_us.aspx

www.facebook.com/OneCircleFoundation/

twitter.com/hashtag/GirlsCircle?src=hash

Yes, just one look at the web site screamed creepy religious cult to me. Would treatvwith great suspicion.

Everything about it is setting my teeth on edge. All that gushing, over blown, hyperbolic and largely meaningless guff on their website.

Both words are sacred bleh ?

I am very disappointed that they called this a girls circle. What a missed opportunity to have a nice sewing circle so the girls can discuss their little worries while doing something useful like sewing lost buttons on men's important suits or running up a pretty frock.

Is this in the UK? I think its a breach of The Equality Act.

Oh ffs, Zombie Thread Alert.

I don't have an issue with calling it a circle.
Inasmuch as I can work out what they are trying to do for boys and girls "circle" is a far more appropriate noun than "council"

Council is wrong here. Councils run things- they make and implement decisions. A something or or other is run by a Council.

It's the wrong word.

The constant references to "boys and young men" compared with "girls" is very irritating.

Zombie Thread Alert

I am terrible at not checking the dates on trending threads as well

My teeth were itching at quite why the boys needed a council, and the girls got a circle

Ahhhh so this is where it starts.

In my field (HE), women get the "Springboard" training for leadership, while men get the "Navigator" programme. Similarly incenses me, but can't quite put my finger on it enough to take it up with management.

I've never done one of these courses, having got to a senior professorship with hard work & excellent mentoring (and giving up having any other kind of life, or family), but I gather the ones for women are basically like Professor Higgins in My Fair Lady :

"Why can't a woman be more like a man?"

oh bugger

sorry

Oh ffs, Zombie Thread Alert

Is it not OK to resurrect an old thread if it illustrates a point about serious abuses of women and girls?

I cannot make you read my earlier post or the preceding old posts of course, but I think they are useful in understanding how various cultic groups use MLM MOs to recruit women and girls and to get them to believe batshit insane stuff

Well I think this is one of the few reasons to resurrect an old threat - because your comment adds useful information AND provides an interesting insight. Here was someone (the OP) who felt uneasy but couldn't quite lay her finger on what the issue was. Six years later someone else who was also concerned has put enough material together to do just that.

However, as Mumsnetters do seem to generally be opposed to resurrecting threads, might it be a little less contentious to start a new thread and cross-link the two?

I your I instincts are correct. Girl's circle, like a knitting circle or something?
While "council" connotes public decision making.

Hoodathunkit Ah, I'd missed your point about the reason for reviving the thread. I was irritated with myself for not noticing. Agree with CharlieParley that it can be illuminating to see old posts in current context. Thanks for links and your work putting them together.

Definitely interesting, thank you.

I think the update is interesting enough to have reanimated a zombie thread. The OP was right to be uneasy, it seems.