Misconceptions of Feminism

[FrothyDragon]

So, following on from the NetMums survey, I started thinking about common misconceptions of feminism.

I'm still relatively new to feminism (Have only identified as a feminist for three years.) But I was just wondering: What misconceptions have you heard about Feminism? Can we bust a few feminist myths here?

A classic for me was being told, in the middle of a meeting for forming a group aimed at providing women with a women only meeting space: "Well, we didn't want to be seen as feminists last time we ran the group... Y'know, man-hating bra burning lesbians". Sadly, I was too shocked to reply succinctly at the time.

AliInWonder - it's a bit early to be setting off fireworks isn't it?

I think we can add to the problematic image of feminists

• Thinking and declaiming loudly that any man in power is useless and only there because of male privilege, but that any woman in a position of power is there because of her ability (unless of course she has done so by being an unwitting tool of the patriarchy - i.e she is pretty, tall, clever, charming)
• Being patronisingly welcoming to the maddest opinion, woo-like beliefs in godesses etc and saying 'please let everyone speak' - unless that person is male or pretty - then it is a focussed campaign of interrupting and then blaming the orginal speaker for interrupting them
• laughing at my suggestion to point people with DV concerns to mumsnet because 'those type of women don't really understand DV'

Oh yes, I am basing this on the six or so people who territorially claim that no-one else is a real feminist in the way they are because most people don'#t understand feminism.

I think the problem is is that feminism suffers in the same way any former battling radical movement does. As the movement becomes more and more successful and the ideas once seeming radical are generally accepted, the orginal crew feel marginalised and bitter and go on about being OGs the 'real' feminists. The sad thing is, its like old punks no one can ever join the 'real feminist' club unless they were not washing not shaving and weraing dungarees in the 70s - and that's a bit sad for the overall aims of feminism.

I think this might help in understanding the problematic image of feminism:

img136.imageshack.us/img136/3393/millietant3ca.jpg

It can be worryingly close to some of the knee jerk reactions in some debates here, however there is good news, I consider myself a 'anti man-hating-feminist feminist' i.e pro women, pro equality, but not man-bashing, not resentful of intelligent men in discussions and not critical only of wealthy men being exploitative, but recognising class and structural privilege as well as gender-based privilege.

NCG many a fight has kicked off over Xenia's opinions.

Yes, All, that is all feminism is treating men and women equally.

On this:
"summerflower I suppose really I should ask Xenia, but does she see herself as unprivileged in the patriarchy, or does she reject that interpretation of society... which might alter our interpretation of her views? "

It depends what you mean by privileged. I get sick of women on here suggestion women cannot like fights or coming top or loving competition or wanting to out earn other women and men, that we cannot enjoy success and triumph and that somehow that is all a male thing. It's not - it is as much my or any woman's thing as a male thing.

Nor do I see money and power as bad things - we are made as humans so that the fittest survive and thes best do best. This is wonderful. It's how our species has been for 2 million years. I don't think feminism has to mean we live in happy clappy communes deludedly pretending cleaning an childcare is as much fun as running a bank or doing brain surgery

I do not see feminism as necessarily linked to left (or right) wing politics at all.

Xenia I have never seen a woman on here claiming that women (as a class) don't like competition etc, though she may say that about herself.

I have seen women say they enjoy childcare more than working. I have also met women who manifestly enjoy childcare more than working. Personally, I don't: like you, I could never give up work. But I do believe those who say that, for them, childcare is more fun. Incidentally, a couple of those people are SAHDs.

I do agree that you can be a feminist and a left or right winger, though perhaps not all brands of feminism (don't know much about Marxist feminism but the title gives an indication that Tories are not included!)

I've had people saying I must be a man or I am like a man (on here) because I have values they see as male - like drive for success, wanting to be best etc.

I have yet to see Marxist feminism is place. I am reading a book about North Korea but it seems to be mostly men in charge all the way. Despite China having a wonderful number of new female millionaires in business the new Party Congress seems to be carbon cut 100% males. The Castros in Cuba all seem to be male. I know there has been the odd one - that Chinese woman who did a lot of harm in the cultural revolution but not many yet around 1914 people had thought that the rise of socialism and communist revolutions would see women having greater rights -0 they do in law there but not in practice.

So then we turn to the Arab Spring which seems to mean women lose all rights and get shoved into veils against because those who have taken over are unreconstructed circa year 0 male chauvanists who are worse than the leaders they replaced.

I hope that fewer posters say that you are a man or are like a man as time goes on.

As time goes on, are you any more prepared to believe that some people really do like childcare ?

I know my Dh would much rather be a child minder than I would. He's much better at that. I am much better at going to work and doing the 9-5.

I also hope that fewer people think that you are male-like, Xenia, because that is also an indicator of sexism that everyone of a gender must act a certain way.

So, if Xenia is white and able-bodied, do her views only apply to other white, able-bodied women? If she and I expressed the same view on a given subject, is it possible that she is correct and I am wrong? Or does my maleness invalidate my opinion, or just make it 'lesser'? (I agree that my maleness informs my view, by the way). And please, please treat my questions as genuine, rather than a 'whataboutthemenz' plea.

To the question of whether things like being successful and driven make one 'like a man', I agree this is a sexist view.

But I would argue that our working culture is framed around what were traditionally male life patterns, that is, based on the assumption that a working man would have a wife at home to tend to his needs, that he would not take time away from work, that the breadwinner role is a male role and so on. That is indisputable, because it is historically the case. Of course, men have fought to protect this because of the financial rewards and status which go with it. If working life was not traditionally male, why did women have to fight to gain access to the professions, to education, and still fight to gain equality in the boardroom and senior positions (in terms of numbers and pay)? Acknowledging this is a different point than suggesting that women who are successful professionally are 'like men'. They are changing the parameters of what professional success looks like.

summerflower
If you tried to tell me the attitude which helped you overcome gendered barriers to promotion in the workplace, I'd think a) what do you know about gendered barriers, and b) that you were mansplaining.

So the team I worked in which was women for the next 5 levels above me had no issues...

... and breathe.
Yep. Consider yourself discredited, apart from the awful made up word...

I dealt with it, by moving to somewhere I could demonstrate my skills.

To be honest, OMC, in the nicest possible way, that just seems to me like turning the discussion round to well, women have issues too - which completely misses the point from my perspective. But never mind. I'm glad you found somewhere you were happier.

I think whatever the culture in jungles and the like some people will be top dog whether male or female. They might have the biggest number of glass beads or most wives (or perhaps husbands) or best breasts or the biggest hut or penis gourd. That innate competitiveness in men and women is something to be celebrated.

Now you might think it is a con the rich pull over the poor to persuade them to take 9 - 5 or even later jobs for a wage but that's to me not a sexist issue but a political issue. To be successful in many careers whatever your gender and be very successful - first very few people will be as most don't want to make the effort or are happy not earning much or aren't up to it and secondly whether male or female not everyone has the luck or other factors which make you successful. I donmt' think it's a male cxulture thing that the harder you work the better you get at your skill.

The Outliers book I read shows that most very successful people put in 10,000 hours of labour - eg Gates as a teenager, the Beatles in Berlin doing 7 hour shows, all the hours I put in at least 10,000 in singing and piano as a teenager (I'm pretty good), the hours at my career - nearly 30 years no breaks even for babies and of my surpreme superior skill - I have more hours of practice with children of any housewife on mumsnet I suspect as I have had 5 children over 28 years adn the more I did that parent thing I suspect the better I get. So the fact you need practice to be good at things might annoy mothers who want to work for 2 hours a day to get home to iron their husband's shirt and cook his dinner but it is simply a fact not a male conspiracy.

I have just joined this site as I'm exasperated at the stupidity of the Netmums admins and the survey they did on Feminism.

kim I'm just saying it is hard work and practice that counts on anything. Put 10,000 hours in and most people are good at whatever that is from scrubbing the loo to ice skating. Anyway the 10,-000 hours of effort point is relevant to women and work as amazingly the harder I have worked the "luckier" I have got. No man or woman can expect to roll up for 2 hours a day at anythnig and expect to be good at it depending on the work of course - if it is a 2 hour concert that's fine but the hours of practice are behind that.