1/2 of all state schools have no girls sitting physics A level

[Himalaya]

Just listening on the radio.

Thoughts? Experience? Ideas?

I studied Physics to A-level, class of about 12 I think (can't really remember as was a rather long time ago) and only 2 girls but I really enjoyed it.

MrA - its OK, men are allowed too. Women usually want equality not world domination even though we could do everything better.

I aquired a DH along with my degrees - we have the same scientific qualifications - and I think yet another benefit my DD has (which I also had) is a father who is totally supportive of her abilities. Men like him and you, with DDs, are vital in changing attitudes

I was in a strange position at school as it had only recently become co-ed, hence I was the only girl in my physics GCSE set. I enjoyed most of it, but struggled with some aspects. When I approached the teacher for help, he said, 'The boys don't need any help, so I'm not going to make an exception for you'. Thereby fulfilling the stupid notion that its a 'boy's subject', rather than realising 14/15 year old boys are too proud/embarassed to ask for help. What a tosspot - I lost my confidence after that.

I ended up doing a biology degree and I did a physics course during the first year which I found fascinating. If only I'd had a better initial impression...

mama - what a shame - to fall foul of the 'men wont ask for directions' phenomenon.

also falling foul of the 'what is the teacher there for, if not to ask for help' tosspot phenomenon!

Rebecca emailled me back and said to start a thread in Site Stuff, so I did:
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/site_stuff/1580675-Science-Nature-Club-Topic-pretty-please

Interesting point mamabanana - I wonder if this (when the reaction is more positive) is a major factor in explaining the 'boys do better in mixed schools' observation.

We had 3 in our class of about 12.
that was 6th form college.

but our tutor groups were fixed by subject, and there were as many boys as girls in our tutor group (physics was the determining subject, and one of our physics girls was in a chemistry tutor group)

i did physics because i wanted to do mechanical engineering, my best friend did it because she wanted to engineering (but didn't know what kind), and the other girl wanted to do Forensic Science.

Delurking here....

I come from a family where the women are nurses and the men are engineers - but I ended up doing Latin, English and Maths at A-level. Here's why: I went to the kind of small, private girls' school that had a 'caring' reputation and a 'science lab' that resembled a large shed, with out-of-date chemicals and no fume cupboard. (How it did not spontaneously combust, I don't know, but I do remember being evacuated from it once because the teacher had done an experiment that produced rather a lot of chlorine gas. ) I was taught O-level chemistry (a very weird, ideological version, involving lots of industrial processes and essays about acid rain, the 'climate change' of the day) by a teacher who had no qualification in the subject herself - and no real aptitude, see above! - and physics by a teacher who had difficulty doing simple sums in her head. As for biology, I got an A by memorising the text book, which was at least halfway decent. I could have gone on to study sciences, but I had the distinct impression they weren't my strength. And TBH I'd have struggled at A-level (at a different, very high-ranking girls' school) with such an inadequate grounding.

Nowadays I'm more inclined to think I might have been stronger in those subjects if the school had had better facilities and teachers. They were little more than a souped-up finishing school at heart - they managed OK with book-based teaching, drama and humanities subjects, but science, PE, computer science, forget it.

Just thinking about the image of physics - I loved the BBC doc "Orbit". It followed the usual format for this sort of series of "camera-friendly scientist" plus "lay presenter to make the audience feel they were part of it" (it's a good format, I think, so long as the lay presenter isn't also "token female"). But in this case, both presenter and scientist were female - Kate Humble (who is brilliant, and never allows producers to treat her as "token female") and Helen Czerski. It was great fun, fabulous explanations and graphics (Helen explaining the Coriolis force on a playground roundabout, then sky-diving to show how the trade winds worked).

There is a noticeable difference in the percentage of girls doing Maths in single and mixed sex schools too, I haven't looked at other sciences but suspect it is less obvious in chemistry and biology because girls are as keen as boys to be doctors.

I was discussing with a physics teacher recently why so few girls do A level physics. I suggested various ways in which he might encourage girls but he told me at length why I was wrong and, as I'd suggested it was easier than chemistry, how difficult a subject it was. I'm not surprised girls don't wish to be taught by him.

Thinking on my personal experience, my GCSE science teachers had degrees in chemistry and biology, so their depth of knowledge and enthusiasm for their specialist subject probably made a difference.

We could only do "double science" and not separate sciences, I wonder if that meant students ended up weaker in physics and so didn't continue.

I would be in favour of 3 sciences being taught in schools.

Sparrow - yes, it was rather self perpetuating. We did dual science as well. Only a small number of pupils did physics a-level, therefore only a small number of the science teachers were physics specialists. I was taught gcse by a biology teacher and a chemistry teacher. I went on to do chemistry at a-level.

I didn't encounter any sexism during my education, but I did afterwards like a ton of bricks. If there had been any I'm sure it would have been very offputting - or I might have been extra stubborn.

Do teachers get training in gender and equality?

I am really impressed, and happy, at how many female scientists (scientistes?) we have posting right here on Mumsnet.

I think I love Mumsnet.

To add to my terse post of a couple of days ago: I am studying physics now, but at school I couldn't wait to be shot of anything scientific. My A-levels were in languages.

So now I am doing a degree in physics at the OU at the same time as holding down a demanding job and being a single mum (how much easier it could have been if I had gone for physics in the first place! lol).

Looking back I honestly don't know, and can't understand, why I didn't discover as a girl the interest in science that I have now. Maybe it was all my fault - but it does seem to fit into a pattern.

I'm an engineer, not a scientist . Studied electrical engineering and am now a software developer. I've always been very numeric and loves maths and physics at school. There are females in the numerate sciences, but not many sadly. Someone told me it might be females are too smart to choose engineering as a career.

You are amazing to work and study as a single mum!

"...amazing..." - well... it's a question of organisation, and really wanting to do it, and having help. All those things make it possible.

But thank you!

I am also amazed at the number of scientists posting here :)

I was definitely encouraged by some very enthusiastic teachers and a supportive dad. I know a dad posted earlier in the thread, so just wanted to say never underestimate the influence you have on your daughter when it comes to encouragement :) I think strong male support for female scientists is just as important as strong female role models.

Also any members of your family /friends can help influence. DH Aunt is a Professor of Physics and has inspired my DD 8 so so much she buys her Science kits and engages in the kind of dialogue about the world and science that I would never even think of in a beautiful and inspiring way.

I agree wandering. My grandad encouraged me and my DB equally in Maths and physics and responded to our interest wonderfully. He was an electrical engineer.

Haven't read most of the posts... but my view on why I, personally, and why possibly other girls didn't do A-level physics is because there was a limit to the number of subjects I could study at A-level. The problem with physics is that it automatically goes with maths (which I enjoyed and did study at A-level), but then, if you want to use it or study it post A-level, it seems to be considered a good combination with further maths and chemistry... resulting in a whole load of subjects all heading in one direction and forcing you to give up essay-based subjects far earlier than you wanted to in order to do it. I didn't want a science-heavy selection of A-level options unless I was certain I wanted a scientific career, so opted for my favourite subjects, instead, knowing that they were all well respected subjects which would get me into a good university and which I was definitely better than most people at, rather than being good at, but not being sure of the competition. I also think that GCSE/O-level science subjects bear little resemblance to what and how you study at A-level and beyond, making it even harder to feel that you are making realistic choices when you make your decision. I knew what to expect with English and maths, because I'd been studying them since I first started school, so knew I wouldn't regret continuing with them... I was also aware that if I enjoyed maths I might have enjoyed physics, but I found the physics GCSE I studied a little bit on the dull side...

Rabbitstew - I'm interested in your view as to why the analysis would work differently for boys: the constraints on timetabling, subject combinations, etc, are the same so they don't - of themselves - explain the gender disparity.

I think it works differently for boys because boys are happier with their gender stereotyping/don't ask themselves quite so much whether they are the victims of it! I'm sure there are boys out there who would like to take a wider range of options post-16, too, though, not just girls.

Interesting. At my dd's all girl school, they went to considerable lengths to tell the girls that you can do physics without maths- there are quite a few doing physics with arts subjects. Dd was doing English, history, theatre studies and physics, and the school was more than happy with that. When she moved to a different school, she could have done the same combination- the Head of 6th form said they had plenty of what he called "leisure physicists". Sadly, the class was full so she had to do something else.

No problem with being a leisure physicist, but if you have an eye to doing engineering or physics at university, I think you'd have a hard time convincing them you could do it without a maths A-level. My perception of universities is that if you want to do a science degree, they already want you to be a seriously committed scientist... Maybe I'm wrong these days, but I don't think I was in my day, when the IB was a weird oddity that people in other countries did rather than something most UK universities had to seriously consider.