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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

See all MNHQ comments on this thread

Violence Against Women

514 replies

EatsBrainsAndLeaves · 30/09/2012 12:27

Just been reading this blog post which talks about women who Transition as violence against women. I agree with her.

[Warning from MNHQ - this contains graphic images]

dirtywhiteboi67.blogspot.co.uk/2012/09/transition-violence-against-women.html?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=Feed:+TheDirtFromDirt+(The+dirt+from+Dirt)

OP posts:
kim147 · 30/09/2012 23:40

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EatsBrainsAndLeaves · 30/09/2012 23:41

I have never suggested women have mutilating surgery for fun.

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Leithlurker · 30/09/2012 23:48

No you only suggested they do so because they are mentally ill!

kim147 · 30/09/2012 23:50

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EatsBrainsAndLeaves · 30/09/2012 23:50

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kim147 · 30/09/2012 23:52

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LRDtheFeministDragon · 30/09/2012 23:53

Are you serious? Homosexuals have a psychological disorder?

No. No they do not.

EatsBrainsAndLeaves · 30/09/2012 23:53

Being lesbian or gay is not a psychological disorder. Lesbian and gay people do not mutilate their bodies to be lesbian or gay

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kim147 · 30/09/2012 23:54

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Leithlurker · 30/09/2012 23:54

You have yet to provide the evidence for that, LRD and others have asked you several times but still no show. Until you provide proper documentation that can be read by everyone, it is only your assessment of what mental state others are in.

kim147 · 30/09/2012 23:55

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Leithlurker · 30/09/2012 23:56

Are men also mentally ill to want to transform from M to F?

EatsBrainsAndLeaves · 30/09/2012 23:58

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kim147 · 30/09/2012 23:59

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kim147 · 01/10/2012 00:00

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EatsBrainsAndLeaves · 01/10/2012 00:03

It bothers me because young women are going through mutilating surgery. These young women are suffering psychologically. They should have proper help, not just be offered mutilating surgery

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Leithlurker · 01/10/2012 00:05

So women who have healthy breasts reduced in size, women who undergo cosmetic surgery, women who have healthy breast tissue but who fear they are going to develop breast cancer they must all be mad as well then?

What about men and women who scar themselves, have implants placed inside themselves, have permanent skin bleaching. All mad as hatters eh? In fact who would you say is sane eats?

Leithlurker · 01/10/2012 00:07

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kim147 · 01/10/2012 00:09

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Leithlurker · 01/10/2012 00:12

Apart from I said something along those lines earlier Kim I agree with you, lets bring back the big victorian asylums and put all the gay and slightly odd people in them and be done with it eh!

MmeLindor · 01/10/2012 00:14

Why do you insist that they are not of sound mind? Don't you see how insulting that is?

I haven't researched this, but I would assume by the time a person gets to the stage of considering surgery, that they have been working through their issues for quite some time.

It's hardly a spur of the moment thing to decide to do.

kim147 · 01/10/2012 00:19

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EatsBrainsAndLeaves · 01/10/2012 00:35

But lesbian and gay people dont need surgery and hormones to become lesbian or gay. How is it comparable?

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sashh · 01/10/2012 05:15

OK, I didn't follow the link, because I don't like to follow links when no one has said what I am linking to.

I have read various people's comments, so Eats let me make this personal.

I had my ears pierced when I was 14, I'd wanted them done from age 5. It is a form of mutilation, I asked for repeatedly.

Now in my 40s I am not happier than just after they were pierced.

Do I think I should have had psychological treatment instead of a piercing gun?

LRDtheFeministDragon · 01/10/2012 06:34

My personal view is yes: in an ideal world, a non-patriarchial world, yes, we wouldn't feel the need to pierce our ears. Because yes, it is (as you say sassh) a form of multilation. But we do it because, well, it is a tiny sting, and a tiny hole, and thereafter typically not an issue.

To talk about this or gender reassignment surgery in terms of 'madness' (which TBH isn't the world eats used) or 'psychological treatment' might be missing the point.

My best guess is that if we lived in a world where gender was no longer our key social construct, transsexualism as people experience it now, wouldn't exist. That is a guess. I don't know. No-one can know.

The reason I mention it is, I do strongly believe that gender is a social construct that we need to get rid of. 'Gender' is all the pink-for-girls, blue-for-boys, women-can't-drive, men-can't-cook rubbish, which when you take it away, only leaves biological sex: what primary and secondary sexual characteristics does this person have? (I also believe that without gender, the stupid desire to put people in boxes and insist such-and-such a woman 'looks masculine' or such and such a man is 'feminine', would disappear).

It seems very confused (and inconsistent, and patronizing) to me that, in order to transition, many transsexuals end up 'performing' a gender identity by being hyper-feminine, or hyper-masculine. Why? If the medical establishment trusts they are capable of deciding they need surgery, it's insulting to make them perform some silly game. Or, if the medical establishment is wavering but playing around with a trumped-up test, why choose to reinforce the idea that women must be masculine and men must be feminine?

So, basically, I think 'gender' is a stupid and useless construct, and I would love to see it gone. What is instead happening is that the definition of 'woman' is being changed. 'Woman' used to mean 'a person whose genitalia led to them being identified as female at birth [nb: not 'feminine']'. This definition is useful (maybe crucial) to feminists because it gives us a group identity, and because feminism is a political ideology, we need a group identity.

Drawing the boundaries of that group isn't easy. In the past, it's been drawn to exclude people we'd now insist be included - working class women; women of colour. Some might say, why not re-draw the boundaries again and include male-to-female transwomen? It isn't an invalid question, but I still find it a worrying one. Because at the moment, transsexuality reinforces the idea that 'gender' is the most important binary (not sex, and not anything else). That's the opposite of what I'd want to do.

I know feminists and transsexuals have a huge amount of common ground, but I still end up coming back to this issue of gender and the - to me - radically different ways we see its importance.

I hope that made sense.

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