Where did all the Feminists go?

[Portofino]

MN seems to have had a reorganisation of FWR when I was on holiday and me no-likey. Why do we now have a Rad fem section and Feminist light chat. So many of the dynamic, knowledgable and interesting posters have disappeared. I have to say that some of the more radical stuff posted really made me think about my views and re-align them. There doesn't seem to be much of that anymore. I am disappointed to be honest.

Crying at Artex's post.

I'm still gutted I missed Naomi Wolf's visit. :( It looked like such fun when I read it afterwards.

I don't know how to define myself as a feminist. And I'm not sure if I want to.

Not being obtuse, but are there any advantages to defining oneself as rad-fem, lib-fem or whatever?

I sometimes think it is like the Christians who are most vocal about being a Christian. 'As a Christian, I think...' - just cause you quack like a Christian doesn't mean you live your life according to Christian values.

I was one of the posters who suggested the feminist chat/support/theory structure. At the time, MNHQ were stating quite firmly that doing nothing and leaving FWR as it was, was Not An Option.

While I would have preferred it if FWR had been left as it was, my reasoning for suggesting the theory section was that we could have a space to discuss issues from a feminist perspective without people taking things so personally - e.g. we could discuss the politics of hair removal without the inevitable derail to deal with all the - 'I shave and I'm a woman and it's my choice so how dare you criticise' - type posts (when in fact, probably quite a few of us both shave and want to examine the politics of doing so).

I totally get the misgivings about separating 'theory' from real life when they are not separate at all, IMO - perhaps it would have been better named 'feminist theory and practice'. I don't think it's that viable having so many sub topics. Inevitably some of them will be underused.

The tone has changed here since all the upset. There are some posters I miss although there are new people whose posts I appreciate too. I know it's a forum about feminism and blah-de-blah and there will always be those who post non-feminist and anti-feminist viewpoints but they don't seem to be challenged so much or so strongly and just lately it seems like the p unters have felt right at home here. It's one thing them posting here but if they are finding this a comfortable place to be then that is something else.

I know I am totally alone in this and indeed disliked for it...

But I felt sorry for Bob.

To watch anyone's psyche unravel is never pleasant.

I don't know how to define myself as a feminist.

I say "I'm a feminist"
I carefully avoid saying what kind of feminist I deem myself, because:
[a] It's irrelevant to anyone outside a feminist-only discussion;
[b] Feminists in such discussions are prone to telling me what I think.

On the second point, it's somewhat like your christian example where self-identified specialists consider their viewpoint exclusively correct even when it's a view on my views! In the past, men used to tell me what I thought. Now it's mainly christians, feminists, ATOS ... and my mother.

Me too garlic

What happened to the definition of radfem = tear down the patriarchy (method undefined) and libfem = subvert from within?

Mme, I don't think there's any advantages to defining yourself as a feminist.

I mean, by default, I'd assume any woman is a feminist until she proves otherwise. Shouldn't it be the default, for women to be feminist?

But at the same time, Feminist is still used as an insult, as a silencing tactic. About a year back, I was sat in the car with a friend, wittering about random stuff when she came out with the beloved "I'm not a feminist but...". Needless to say, followed up with a feminist thought. I think we need to remove the stigma of being identified as a feminist, and take away that stick the MRAs use to beat us with.

do you think its possible to hold radfem views on many issues (like porn, etc) but see feminism as an individual process and not want to demolish the patriachy, but change peoples perceptions/thinking, like the libfems?

xpost, stewie, youve already answered. thats kind of how I feel.

and frothy, I wholeheartedly agree. being a feminist isnt a bad thing. it doesnt mean you dont like wearing make up or buying shoes. it doesnt mean you hate men. it means that you believe inequality and respect.

I suspect like most women I dont talk about being a radical feminist outside of feminist groups. Its just a useful shorthand to explain a set of views and political theory that I agree with. In the same way someone might say they are an anarchist for example.

I think you need all of it, the vanguard throwing molotov cocktails into male-entrenched institutions and the libfems mounting legal challenges.

And I would never think you can only call yourself X if you think Y, chiefly because there is no overarching agreement on the matter like Moses' tablets.

I STILL want to know how it can be done, or at least suggested methods.

BlameIt, I think it's entirely possible.

After all, Feminism isn't autonomous, so surely it stands to reason that strands of feminism aren't autonomous, either?

Blame if you dont want want to demolish patriarchy you dont agree with radical feminism. But there is a long history of liberal feminists being anti porn, ertc. So perfectly possible to agree with radfems on these issues and be a liberal feminist.

Does no-one see the damage from the good old FWR days ? The infighting and back biting was on all sides. Rehashing it all really doesn't help.

What would help would be trying to overcome the stereotypes about all of us being a bunch of extreme, man hating, woman oppressing harpies who should stay in our own special section. That was what the old FWR did and we all played a part in it.

If feminism has helped you to see the world as it really is, surely you have an obligation to help other women. Not to berate them because you consider them to be lesser feminists or not feminists at all.

Having a go at posters who currently post here just because they tend not to be extreme enough or seasoned enough or hard core enough kind of misses the point.

"I'm not a feminist but...". Needless to say, followed up with a feminist thought.

I always love to hear that! Because it is going to be followed by a feminist thought :)

The label matters far less than the thought. I can say "I'm not middle-aged but ..." and you'd ignore that part of my speech because obviously I am!

but, isnt it about methods rather than the end result?

I am raising my only child as a feminist. to view women as his intellectual and social equals. one day he may marry and have children, and hopefully raise his children the same way. I think that progress can be made one person at a time.

In general I think the main reason why rad feminism/ fem in general is so unpalatable for many is that it appears to generalise about men and this is probably down to a lack of word in the English language for "some men, not all men, maybe not even the majority of men but a sufficiently higher number of men than women in a comparable situation for it to be considered a social pattern"! IYSWIM.

People look at their everyday lives and see (mostly I hope) that the individual men in their lives aren't rabid perps of the patriarchy and so disassociate with the generalities of feminist analysis. But then Fm isnt about individuals but more about recognising patterns. It's not about blaming individuals but more about analysing and critiquing a system that favours some over others.

That probably doesn't make any sense whatsoever but I was just trying to work out why people out in the wider forum would want to sideline FWR and not see it as relevant to their everyday lives.