The difference between liberal and radical feminism

[EatsBrainsAndLeaves]

This short video explains the basic difference between liberal and radical feminism.

"modify their language in the club".

What does this suggest?

Swearing and talking about their physical ailments (an extensively discussed topic).

"Swearing and talking about their physical ailments (an extensively discussed topic)."

Why then does it have to exclude only women? Why is it not just a 'pensioners club' with men's nights, women's nights and maybe mixed nights too?

Why can't it just stay the way it is?

"Why can't it just stay the way it is?"

Because historically women have been barred from many venues and institutions for purely arbitrary sexist reasons. As women's equality has been fought for and institutions began having to open up to them, men have used men's clubs (strip joints, golf clubs and other clubs that exclude women with their clothes on) as a 'last refuge for sexism' and to do informal business networking - even conduct formal business meetings. This has been a notable barrier to women's equality and access to the channels of power.

Whenever a entrance policy invites all men without exception but deliberately excludes women there is a risk a similar culture of male power-sharing will arise at the expense of women's equality (because men still hold more powerful positions in society as a general rule). Your dad might like going there for the reasons you describe but do all the members? Are some power sharing?

If they are all pensioners and there is no dubious male power-sharing going on, then that should be the entrance policy.

Augusta National Golf Club.

very topical.

Is your dad Crawford Troy Johnson III?

I think he might have a bit of a shock coming next month...

Clubs, by their very nature are exclusive and all inevitably end up with informal networking. This is quite useful, I can remember at least 2 occasions when I have phoned my dad to the club because I have needed emergency (plumbing) and not so emergency (broken TV) repairs. This is no different from accessing help from my mother's social network.

My father's club is not a pensioner's club (my dad became a member in his late twenties/early thirties) although due it's nature many of the members are middle aged to elderly (members are only admitted from other clubs) I can assure you that there has never been a strip show there. A few years ago someone hired a strippagram for a member who was having a birthday celebration in the club. She was refused entry. Far from being used for business or sex reasons, the club is seen by its members as a refuge from such things.

'a refuge from such things'

Aw, that's nice. They could pop round each other's houses then.

I'm fairly amused that the main rationale for keeping it to folk with penes only is modification of language and so they don't have to dress up.

Fuck. I need a new pissing frock if I'm to be allowed in public, obv. What an unbelievably stellar example of outdated stereotyping. Wimmin speak naicely and can't abide a soiled neckerchief.

Dione. As you'll grasp from my post up thread, I spent years being evicted from such premises courtesy of le vagine. My colleagues with penes did not. I have feck all truck with such blatant bollocks. But how lovely for daddy that he has a refuge. I think he'd find in the new-fangled officer's type clubs that allow women past the doors, the men have forgotten the requirement to modify their language. Though I have yet to overhear a conversation about the price of groceries. Mostly they are discussing the woman in the corner's cleavage.

Clubs.

you might grasp from this that I have a hatred of all things traditional. That couldn't be further from the truth. But sex-based discrimination on the grounds of tradition? Yar, nuff said.

They couldn't pop round to my parent's house. My mum just about tolerates it when my dad is unwell and his friend's visit.

As for swearing: my mum swears like a trooper, my dad does not swear in front of her as his mum taught him that it was disrespectful and it stuck, so now in his sixties he still will not do it.

And yes it is great that my dad has a place where he can go and discuss sports, health problems, shopping (yes, grocery shopping) and play snooker. When my mum suffered miscarriage and almost died and more recently when my nan died his club was an invaluable source of support to him and our whole family. Bereavement support is commonplace there due to the advanced age of members. What exactly is wrong with men having a refuge where they feel comfortable laughing, crying and shooting the breeze with other men.

I can assure you that you have spent no time at all being evicted from clubs like my dads, while your male colleagues got to remain. What clubs are you talking about where you were admitted only to be evicted afterwards because of your gender? Why did your company organize outings to such places?

As for discussing the breasts of the woman in the corner, that doesn't happen in my dad's club. Men only you see. The only women present are guests (usually family members) of members and it would be seen as extremely disrespectful to discuss them in this way.

Only men can provide bereavement support, play snooker, and discuss sports and grocery shopping. Okay. I'm sure that makes sense on some plane. Maybe. Presumably they'll open it up to women in twenty years or so when the originals die out.

Oh, no, not outings to such places. On the premises. They don't do it any more. They've caught up with idea that women are equals. Kinda.

Private clubs are very interesting indeed.

I'm afraid I just don't don't understand why such a rarefied atmosphere is needed for penes.

Maybe they just want a place to escape to? Where they can talk about things man to man? Discuss things that they would feel uncomfortable talking about if women were present. Such as their health. Money. Job. Sex life. A safe place for them to open up?

Or it's just a place to play snooker and get pissed :)

"I'm afraid I just don't don't understand why such a rarefied atmosphere is needed for penes."

Exactly

But women can demand women-only spaces?

Women demanding women-only spaces is different, though, isn't it?

One marginalized group demanding a space to themselves is different from a majority, lauded group insisting they should be able to be accepted into every space.

All oppressed groups can (and should) demand space free of the oppressor.

liberal fems are being misrepresented,not=sex positive
false terminology as if one ideological stance more active out there than other
and it's reeks of I is better feminist than youse competition

Lots of women value and need women only spaces. Whether these are toilets, sexual abuse groups or discos. If you dont value women only spaces fine. But that does not make it okay to support the move to destroy them for woman who do.

Olkn, I spent months arguing that trans should be allowed into that blardy radfem conference.

I'm happy for single sex meetings or counselling for specific purposes ie rape victims etc (but am also content that men can train and work as rape counsellors as they so wish - with the proviso that women can opt into same sex counselling or crisis support groups as they wish.)

Old boys clubs where they all clap each other on the back and arrange for each other's sons to get the plum jobs? No ta.

madwoman - You know as well as I do that the radfem conference was woman only. AS Trans MtoT are not woman, they were never going to be allowed into a radfem conference.

I think you'll find that was the thing I had a problem with.

But I'm really not interested in traversing that buoy again, and won't be. It was just a response to olkn, not the opening shot in the next round. It's an interesting juxtaposition, though... Radfem conference as a one-off/ annual event v men's club 365...

Fwiw, I don't have any particular vested interest in attending either.

Although I love that yet again the row erupts on a lib/rad differencesthread.

I'm not going to fuel this particular argument.

We're on the same side, eats. Whatever you might like to believe.