stag nights and strippers

[Kveta]

I am struggling to put into words why I find strip clubs so objectionable, but I do.

Recently a friend has said her DP is thinking he might have to visit one on his stag night, and she is worried that by saying no she will appear controlling.

I think she has every right to object but other people around her are doing the 'it's his last night of freedom' crap so she is doubting herself.

I will be directing her here for some coherent thoughts from wise MNetters if that's ok :)

No your friend is not controlling but objecting to the idea of her DP visiting a stag club. The last night of feedom is not an argument for him doing whatever he wants. If he wants to sleep with a woman on his stag night would that be acceptable because it is his last night of freedom? I think most would say no.

In terms of strip clubs I too find them objectionable and always have. Women are paid to expose their bodies in a "sexy" way for the benefit of men. I dont think womens bodies should be for sale like that, it demeans all women.

And I think all women should listen to their own instincts on these issues. It is too easy to be persuaded to go along with things you are unhappy about because of accusations such as prude, making a big deal out of nothing, etc. Even if you cant always articulate why, there is a reason you feel uncomfortable. Trust that instinct.

Kveta "Recently a friend has said her DP is thinking he might have to visit one on his stag night, and she is worried that by saying no she will appear controlling."

He doesn't have to do anything he doesn't want to. If he doesn't want to go, then he should make this clear. If DP wants to go, but his DP doesn't want him to go, then I think there needs to be a conversation between the two of them.

This is what annoys me about people who reduce the issue of strippers and other aspects of the sex industry down to a matter of pure choice on behalf of the women who willingly participate; it totally ignores the effect it has on the rest of the female population.

Your friend feels pressured to go along with it because it's become normalised and she doesn't want to appear a prude and that's an unfair position for your friend to be in.

Just tell her to be strong, not to have big justifying arguments about it, but not to cave in either. If she doesn't like it, she doesn't like it, end of.

Personally, I detest the whole idea of stag and hen nights, what they are meant to symbolise, the activities they entail and the mahoosive costs when folks seem bent on outdoing all their friends. They always seem to result in some kind of argument or upset - someone feeling pressured to fork out what they can't afford to avoid offending a "friend," arguments between attendees when tanked up, injuries resulting from "pranks," bullying within the group of "friends," people concerned about what their partners will get up to, the lot. I seriously don't understand why folks proceed sheep-like into having them, knowing that there will almost always be grief of some kind.

So there, that's my view.

In your friend's case, there seem to be two issues here that are linked.

One, she's not happy about her partner going to a strip club for his stag night. That is not unreasonable for a whole range of reasons from not wanting her DP to invest in the exploitation of women to the fact that whether by choice or coercion, the "stag" could end up engaging in sex with another woman or women. Few people I know object to strip clubs because they are prudes or dislike sex. They dislike sexual exploitation and the breaches of trust that strip clubs rely on for their survival.

Two, she's uneasy about broaching the subject with her DP. Regardless of what the issue is, if there is something that makes a one person in a relationship feel uncomfortable or unhappy and they don't feel they can or have the "permission" to raise it, in my mind, it's a problem. I'm not sure from the OP whether it's the friend who feels she can't say anything for fear of being labelled a prude or whether she feels she can't say anything because her DP will not welcome her opinion, value her views or perhaps be hostile in his response.

If it's the former, she really, really needs to summon the courage to say what she thinks. Her DP may not know that his idea of the strip club is so hurtful to her. It may be that he doesn't actually want to go but his "mates" are dragging him sheep like into doing what you are "supposed" to do on a stag night. She needs to be honest with herself and with him.

If it's the latter, I would wonder if there are other subjects where he insists it's "my way or the high way," and the friend may need to be thinking long and hard whether she wants to spend the rest of her life with a person who feels entitled to exert his views, his will on his partner.

The way I'd put it to her is:

Did she put a gun to his head and force him to agree to marry her?

If no, then do they plan to have an open marriage?

If no, then how is she being 'controlling'? He has agreed to get married (he may even have been the one who asked), and he's intending to be monogamous. So why on earth would he go and see strippers the night before? What's going to change in 24 hours? Or is he pretending that, despite being a willing participant in a monogamous marriage, this is still a huge sacrifice and not his natural inclination, because he'd rather be 'free' to see strippers?

If he feels like that, he's messed her around by agreeing to get married.

(The whole 'last night of freedom' thing gives me the creeps. For men and for women.)

Nah, she's right to object, I think - and others have said, bit more concerning that she's worried about telling him.

Stag do used to be all about going out and getting trollied and "oh so witty" pranks on the groom. I was all up for the going out drinking with a bunch of mates - and then a curry afterwards :-).

Latterly there seemed to be more of a "get a stripper in" - which originally was to embarrass the groom - and later became more "edgy". Then it moved to strip clubs, lap dancing, "visits to Prague". The only one I've seen recently that looked good was "dismantle a Ferrari".

A lot of blokes seem to do this "because it's expected" or because they'll be seen as miserable if they don't. More fool them. When I had a stag do, I clearly told best man that if there was a stripper, I'd walk out.And that was a long time ago.

Last one I went to as an elderly bloke, they "lads" all went to a lap dancing place, I I went with some older guys to drink whisky. The guy whose house it was decided to be "edgy" by showing porn. As someone said in AIBU "What's the point of that!"

OP, remind your friend to tell her partner the word he is looking for is "No". He doesn't have to do jack shit. So won't "have to visit" a strip club.

This is what annoys me about people who reduce the issue of strippers and other aspects of the sex industry down to a matter of pure choice on behalf of the women who willingly participate; it totally ignores the effect it has on the rest of the female population.

And you totally choose to ignore the myriad other negative effects that affect the female population, and pick on those working in the sex industry as the route of all evil.

It implies that you believe those who work in the sex industry are uneducated, basically stupid and are simply going along with 'social conditioning'.
Women choose to flaunt their bodies on a night out, why is this? Is it for the sake of other women or to attract the attention of the opposite sex?

I fully understand why the OP's friend doesn't want her partner to go to a strip club. I think it's perhaps the notion of a group of men together, alchohol and naked women, I somehow feel that the need to do this on stag/hen do'e implies that somehow marriage will be boring and the end of having fun, when it's about making a commitment to be with someone you love, not commiserating that you can't go out any more get drunk and have a one night stand.

I'm not really sure why OP would find strip clubs objectionable though. Have you ever been to one?
At the end of the day it's illegal to be naked in public, so why is paying to see someone else's body in private such a bad thing?

Avaboo - absolutely no idea how you managed to draw THAT conclusion from anything said on this thread.

ava, if you look at the rest of this section, you will see loads of threads discussing many issues other than this one.

Strip clubs are objectionable because the are exploitative shite and perpetuate the idea that it's a really excellent idea for men to pay women for their bodies instead of, you know, being decent human beings.

I know several people who've worked in strip clubs, and they're all students and highly educated. This does not magically make them immune to being exploited and it doesn't make them feel any better about the whole thing, either.

It's a total myth to pretend educated women can't be exploited.

I don't find strip clubs offensive.

I have only been in 1 before and it was fine.

DH has been in them before as he goes to London on business etc and it's quite a common thing for a business dinner to end up in one with clients.

DH phoned me only 2 weeks ago when he was in London, it was only 7:30pm but he had been there all day and was telling me that he was in Metropolis.

I laughed, told him to have a good time and that was it.

He was home at 11pm. He had 3 private dances.

I couldn't care less. If I did he wouldn't go.

Fine for you, or fine for people working there?

Surely if there are people working in them who end up feeling exploited and demeaned (which there are), it's indicative of a problem?

We wouldn't be ok with any other industry regularly turning out women workers who felt shite about it all, so why this one?

Bubalou, if you feel happy about your DH going to strip clubs, having "private dances," buying other sexual services, etc., that's find for you and your DH. There are couples who swing or have open relationships where they have sexual relationships with other people and if both parties are genuinely happy with that, I don't see that being a problem either.

You said that if you didn't want your DH to go, he wouldn't.

The issue for the OP's friend is different. She and her DP have no such agreement in place. She doesn't feel she can ask him NOT to go to a strip club. Whether that's because she fears he won't listen to her or some other reason, we don't know, but the situ is different from yours.

he might have to visit one on his stag night

Lol at "he might have to" - like it's something beyond his control.

it's his last night of freedom

I cannot stand this type of stag-do mentality. All lads together, anything goes, all egging each other on...

Just be grateful it's your friend that's marrying him and not you, OP.

it's his last night of freedom

This isn't going to be a one-off though, is it, if he's that type of person and so are his friends, there'll be lots of other times when he "has to visit one" - his mates' stag-dos, birthdays, works nights out etc etc.

This issue needs resolving before they get married, it would be a deal-breaker for me I'm afraid.

I didn't mean to be flippant.

I was merely commenting on my personal circumstances. (We are not swingers by the way)

Me and DH both know how we feel about this. I am not sure how I would handle it OP if I had to address it with him - other then to maybe tell him you don't feel comfortable with it if that is the case?

Also I do not disagree with the fact that exploitation happens in places like this (of course it does) however not ALL lap dancers etc are exploited.

I have known a couple of girls who do it, they are all very confident, happy and have no pressure on them to do it - it's a choice. One is a hair dresser and she picks up extra shifts at a local strip club and I quote 'when she wants to buy a new pair of shoes or a nice bag'. By shoes she doesn't mean she's saving for a pair of clarks pumps - she means Louboutins - of which she has many pairs!

selling your body for shoes makes me feel very uncomfortable.

I'm not saying it doesn't make me strawberry - I wouldn't do it in a million years - even if I had the body for it!

If she was a close friend of mine I'd of given her a damn good talking to!

Haven't read the whole thread, but just a thought- ladies sometimes have a male stripper at a hen do and its considered just a laugh.

We live in a male dominated society where womens bodies are fetishized and judged in public. It is a different dynamic a woman stripping in front of a group of men, to a man stripping in front of a group of a woman.

Although I wouldnt be too impressed by a male stripper at a hen do either.

SGM could you point at the data about those stats. The only 2 reports I can find are Holsopple (25 years old and figures from the US) and the Lilith report which has been shown to be a waste of the paper it is written on. The claim from the Inspector Drummond was not based on any data but a gut instinct. So struggling to find anything that can be used in an argument.

Taking your clothes off to dancy sexily for men you dont know, who pay you to do this, is exploitation. If your boss offered you money to do this would you do it at work? For most women the answer would be no, because it is demeaning and exploitative.

Definitely redirect her to here before she gets married regardless her partner going to strip club or not.