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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

In this day and age! A thread for unbelievably obvious examples of sexism.

432 replies

blackcurrants · 18/09/2012 12:31

A thread for "I can't believe that just happened to me! In this day and age!"

Yesterday we spent about 40 minutes in a Toyota dealership, looking to spend about $10k on a used car. The salesman only asked DH's name, only wrote down DH's number, and only talked to DH about the cars available. DH kept referring to me, asking my opinion, and generally looking uncomfortable. Eventually DH snatched back his license from the salesman and said "No, I don't think so. Let's go." And as I turned I added "Joe? Thank you for your help today. I work in sales and I wanted you to know that since I walked in here you haven't asked me a single question, or addressed me directly even once. At one point you walked away from me, talking to my husband about the next car you were showing us, so that I couldn't hear what you said. I just want you to know that I earn more than my husband (actually not yet true, but soon will be!), I know more about cars than my husband (v.true), and you acted like I didn't exist. Which is why we're leaving."

When I got into our car, DH was cheering. We drove 5 miles away and bought a nissan.

As we were doing the dishes last night, talking about this, DH said "I do hope you tell Mumsnet about it." Grin he knows me so well.

OP posts:
florencejon · 19/09/2012 12:36

Blackcurrants - Thanks for clarifying. I totally agree with your walking away if that is how you were treated. The care salesman lost a sale, a sale which he sure as hell didn't deserve after the way you were treated. Now, if he modifies his behaviour to increase his sales and starts to show respect to women, his trigger is financial rather than moral. How would you feel?

Please, if you don't have the time to answer, nor wish to, I understand. I'm simply curious.

StewieGriffinsMom · 19/09/2012 12:39

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

captainmummy · 19/09/2012 12:41

Blackcurrants - you pipped me to it! I was just about to make the same observation,- that when we went to look at Volvos, all questions and answers were directed at DH even tho I'd be driving it jsut as much. It's a family car. Not mine, or his.

florencejon · 19/09/2012 12:41

Bookbrain - "But I was livid that they said these things in front of my young, impressionable sons, who were looking up to these men as not only knowledgeable experts but also superhero types (tank commanders!!)."

Very valid point. I'm curious too as to why women cannot be tank crewmen. I wonder what their rationale behind the decision is?

florencejon · 19/09/2012 12:45

Stewie - No, not obvious to me, but was after she clarified it.

No, not intending to be 'narky' at all. Just trying to contribute to the debate and offer an opinion which, due to the very nature of debates, can be slightly different to other peoples.

kim147 · 19/09/2012 12:47

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

messyisthenewtidy · 19/09/2012 12:49

"That is something that I've thought a lot about. When someone is struggling - such as an IT problem, and you have experience in that area and could probably help, what do you do?

And does your reaction depend on the gender of who needs help and your gender?"

Definitely Kim147. This happened the other day when a friend was struggling with a piece of equipment. I really wanted to help but was afraid to look as if I was taking over and suggesting he was incapable. I'd never feel like that with a female friend.

Thing is I'm never sure if that's just me being a wus or if lots of women feel like that.

Oh lord, between this thread and the socialisation one I've realised I'm such a wimp, and that the patriarchy is so deeply ingrained in me I'd need bloody surgery to remove it!! Sad

TheDoctrineOfSnatch · 19/09/2012 12:52

Wow that is horrible Bookbrain. Fine to say "at present it is only men who take these roles" but the other stuff is awful.

Did you let the museum know that their docents were talking like this? Bit of training required, methinks!

florencejon · 19/09/2012 12:52

Kim - Thanks for the link Kim. I thought Caroline Wyatt made some good points.

FoodUnit · 19/09/2012 13:32

messyisthenewtidy "I really wanted to help but was afraid to look as if I was taking over and suggesting he was incapable. I'd never feel like that with a female friend. Thing is I'm never sure if that's just me being a wus or if lots of women feel like that."

You certainly aren't the only woman to feel like that, and I've had good reason too- I can't tell you the number of times men have become irrational and borderline aggressive when I've tried to help. I have been conditioned by their behaviour into non-action now. Its very frustrating!

Bookbrain · 19/09/2012 13:36

DoctrineofSnatch, I didn't complain. I thought about it and then wondered if it would just wind me up more to do so. In retrospect I wish I had though as they are probably dishing out the same guff to visitors now.

TheDoctrineOfSnatch · 19/09/2012 13:44

Bookbrain I would seriously consider dropping them an email now.

nickeldaisical · 19/09/2012 13:54

i wouldn't feel awkward helping someone who needs help regardless of their sex.

but that's just me, i think. i've always been forthright.

OrangeKipper · 19/09/2012 13:56

"why didn't YOU open the conversation with, 'I am interested in.......""

florencejon, can you clarify why you made this assumption?

florencejon · 19/09/2012 14:24

OrangeKipper - Sure.

When the OP said that the salesman only asked her DP's name, I assumed that this was on the initial introduction and that only her DP had spoken.

She clarified it for me and I think she made the right decision to walk out.

vezzie · 19/09/2012 14:31

What I find difficult is that in a situation where women are shouldering unfair amounts of work (like at family parties I have been to where the women are washing up and tidying the hired hall while the men are still standing about drinking and chatting), as a woman there is nothing I can do. I can see that someone is dashing about and take something off her - "Oh let me dry those" - but it is still just some woman doing it and the status quo is unchanged. And as a woman it feels so, so wrong to go up to a group of men and say "Could you please help with this?" because - because - why? I just can't ask people to do things. In fact now I think about it this is a major theme in where I have been going wrong my whole life.

nickeldaisical · 19/09/2012 14:37

yes, vezzie, totally agree.

the women seem to do it automatically and men have to be asked.
but the only time they are asked is when it's something that needs to be lifted or carried Hmm

blackcurrants · 19/09/2012 14:43

florence
Now, if he modifies his behaviour to increase his sales and starts to show respect to women, his trigger is financial rather than moral. How would you feel?

I don't care what he feels in his heart, as long as he treats men and women with equal respect.

I equate this to the civil rights legislation in America in the 60s. They didn't pass a law saying "you may never again think white people are superior to black people" or "you must become best friends with a black person immediately". They passed a law saying "you may not bar black people from using your public services and receiving equal treatment there: eg: your cafe, your bus service, your park, your shoe shop."

It didn't make individual racists less racist, it made society less racist and it made overt racism less socially acceptable. Which, in turn, eventually (over generations), made individuals less racist.

So with this salesman: I don't know if, deep in his soul, he's a sexist. I expect probably not - and frankly, I don't care. I care that he behaved in a sexist manner, which he ought not to do when serving the public.
If the reasons why he modifies his behaviour are financial, that's fine with me as long as he modifies his behaviour. I'm not here to modify his soul, and I don't need to, to ensure equal and fair treatment for the next people he helps buy a car.

Also, sexism is learned behaviour. It has to be unlearned. Learning to change your behaviour is hard, and requires external motivators (whether it's a sticker chart, a public weigh-in, a cheering crowd watching you run, whatever.) One external motivator is simply being informed that your behaviour is unacceptable. As a teen I used to throw around the word 'retard' like the rest of my peer group. At some point I was challenged on that, informed it was unacceptable, asked to think about the impact of my behaviour and change it. I have done so, since then. It wasn't a pleasant experience but I needed to hear it.

I wasn't accused of being a bigot, but behaving in a bigoted manner. No one told me bad things about the state of my soul, they asked me to review and alter my behaviour, and I did so. Making that change has made me more aware of 'ablism', too.

This is long and I congratulate anyone who's finished reading it!
Final note, florencejon - I think you were being told your responses were narky because they got rather interrogative, along the lines of "You experienced sexism? Well, what did you do wrong to make people treat you like that? How was this your fault?" I wasn't 'asking for it' by my behaviour, you know. I was just treated in a sexist manner because I was visibly female in a heterosexual partnership, in a car dealership.

OP posts:
florencejon · 19/09/2012 14:58

Vezzie and nickeldaisical - What you have described is a very common situation. I'm at the point in my life where I have enough life experience to realise that not everyone is open to change/will change due to age, pride from a refusual to accept that maybe a past way of thinking could be incorrect, even an adamant refusal to change because they believe that their views are indeed the correct ones.

I think we can make a difference by making our own personal expectations clear, by choosing what type of man, if any, we decide to share our lives with and how we raise our children.

Change is never easy, especially when we are trying to change centuries of what was once considered acceptable behaviour.

From the situation you described, I hope that if just one man decided to help with the clearing up, then a ball would have started rolling, and the others would have decided to join in. Maybe that is the way to go forward for now in dealing with ingrained behaviour.

What do you both suggest?

OrangeKipper · 19/09/2012 15:07

So florencejon, you assumed - very confidently, to the point of chiding blackcurrants for it - that she had not spoken, based on the salesman's behaviour to her?

But the post is about the salesman's whole behaviour being unreasonable. Eg continually speaking only to MrBlackcurrants even when MrB kept referring the questions back to blackcurrants. Not asking her name would be consistent with this.

I'm interested how you, instead, came to the conclusion the salesman must have behaved reasonably on this, and further that blackcurrants must be at fault?

OrangeKipper · 19/09/2012 15:14

x-post w blackcurrants putting it much more pithily.

florencejon · 19/09/2012 15:15

Blackcurrants Your post was great reading. Thanks for taking the time to write such a long and informative post. The racism comparison was very interesting.

I pick up a lot of anger/aggression from posters when they have experienced assumptions based on their being a woman. Absolutely, being discriminated against is wrong, but I don't think investing anger in the situation helps in the short or long term. Maybe that is just an age thing though as I am certainly calmer as the years pass by and I don't want to do anything to exacerbate my age induced high blood pressure.

I find it interesting too that what offends one woman doesn't necessarily offend another, or at least to the same degree. Obviously, it is difficult to gauge a person's anger from an internet forum and so we rely on the tone and language used in the post which can sometimes be inaccurate.

Kendodd · 19/09/2012 15:15

My friends FIL won't close the curtains at home. He says it's "woman's work".

Herrena · 19/09/2012 15:16

In the town centre today, a woman commented on my unusual surname as I made a card payment. I was making conversation blithering and mentioned that it was my dad's surname as I didn't change it when I got married. She looked mildly shocked and said 'Didn't your husband mind?'

I explained that I got my doctorate in my own name and so didn't want to change it. I think the doctorate bit shocked her even more Grin

OrangeKipper · 19/09/2012 15:19

And btw I was a seven-year-old girl doing martial arts with a husband and wife team of instructors, possibly before the above-mentioned sexist instructor was born.

So no, I don't see it as a triumph that in 2012 a seven year old has to challenge a man's stereotypes. I think it's tragic she has to.

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