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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

A thread to ask basic questions about feminism

86 replies

EatsBrainsAndLeaves · 16/09/2012 23:39

We havent had one of these threads for a while. This is a thread to ask basic questions about feminism. It doesnt matter how silly or trivial you think your question is. This is the place to ask it.

OP posts:
FastidiaBlueberry · 19/09/2012 21:37

Choice shmoice.

Feminism isn't about slagging off other women for the choices they make.

It's about analysing the society in which women and men make their choices and acknowledging that choices are made in a context.

There's an interesting thread running atm in this section which discusses this:

here it is

TheDoctrineOfSnatch · 19/09/2012 22:25

Mjl there are a (very) few posters in this section who disapprove of housewives and express themselves forthrightly. The majority of posters on this section do not do this and many of those also express themselves forthrightly.

I assume this is mirrored in the wider world but I spend most of my "debating time" on here so wouldn't be sure of that.

TheDoctrineOfSnatch · 19/09/2012 22:26

It might help to remember that feminism has roots as a political movement. You wouldn't expect all Labour party members to agree on all positions, likewise not all feminists agree on everything.

BeyondTheLimitsOfAcceptability · 20/09/2012 00:54

I have come to the conclusion that I am a feminist after all!
What do I do now?

Grin
margerykemp · 20/09/2012 08:31

The car I have now is so obviously designed for a man. I am tall for a woman but still shorter than an averge man. But I find this car so awkward. I cannot reach the glove compartment from the driver's seat. I have to put the seat at the highest setting to see over the steering wheel. Then the gap between the seat and steering wheel is very narrow- obviouslt designed for men with smaller thighs. It is all very different from the small car I used to have which was certainly made for a woman driver.

It's like plugs- they are designed to help people with colour blindness (men). But nothing is ever designed around conditions you just get in women.

TheDoctrineOfSnatch · 20/09/2012 08:35

Beyond, you need to send off the form and get a badge Grin

Or hang out here talking with us Smile

EatsBrainsAndLeaves · 20/09/2012 08:51

"some 'feminists' look down on and even in some cases are positively horrible to women who chose to be 'housewives' or have a 'hubby' or like having doors opened for them or being driven around by their boyfriend in 'his' car. Surely the point of equality is CHOICE and FREEDOM to choose??? "

Feminism is a political theory. So feminists do critique the word and position of housewives. So for example, why is it mainly women who stay home to look after the children? Why do SAHM have higher levels of poor mental health than women working part time? Why are housewives looked down on by much of society?

But this is very different from criticising an individual woman. Virtually all feminists think raising children is a very important job and very undervalued.

Feminism isnt about choice as such, although I understand why it gives that impression. For example, Margaret Thatcher chose to cut services and money that benefitted many women and young children and feminists condemned her choice. Women choose to promote rape myths and again feminists condemn that choice. These are extreme examples, but I have used them to explain that it is an over simplification to say that feminism is about choice.

What would be more accurate is to say that feminism is about ending male domination over women as a political class or group. So within this when we talk about womens choices it would be more feminist to ask - does this choice help women and girls or make life worse for them.

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EatsBrainsAndLeaves · 20/09/2012 08:54

Beyond - Feminism is not just a political theory. It is about putting these ideas into practice. So maybe have a think about how you can put the fact you are a feminist into practice. Thismay include how you bring up your children, challenging sexist jokes, making sure you and any partner you have - if you have one - do an equal share of housework and childcare, donating to your local women's aid refuge, etc.

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SomersetONeil · 20/09/2012 09:29

Feminism is about choice, but it's also about equality and having a voice which means some women's choices may well be questioned by feminists. In other words, they're free to make their choice, but they should expect to defend it.

Glamour models who choose to expose their breasts to the Sun-reading public, for example, will come in for a fair amount of flack for their choice. Because it impacts on the lives of other women.

They're fully entitled to choose to do whatever they want with their breasts. Flash and expose them to whoever they seem to think needs to see them. I don't think many feminists want to ban women from showing everyone their boobs - they're just interested in examining their need to show everyone their breasts through a feminist lens. And would like to live in a world where there was as much of a demand to see said breasts over the morning cereal as there is to see naked todgers over cereal.

I.e. none.

It's about a bigger-picture mind-shift.

EatsBrainsAndLeaves · 20/09/2012 09:46

Some feminists such as radical feminists do want to ban all porn, so that does take away the choice to women who say they want to choose to be involved in porn.

No feminists that I know of would want to take away your choice to wear lipstick for example. Although some feminists might talk about a feminist analysis of femininity and wearing make up.

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AliceHurled · 20/09/2012 11:32

Ban all porn or create a society where porn is nonsensical as it is alien to a culture where women aren't oppressed? I'd say the latter.

Himalaya · 20/09/2012 11:40

As a feminist, I think feminism has a bit of a dilemma over the whole housewife question...which often results in acrimonious SAHM vs WOHM discussions on here.

On one hand there is the sense that something is wrong in the world as long as women are still predominantly the ones who give up or scale back their public role, earning capacity and ambitions when they have children, on the other hand is the argument that caring for children should be equally valued as anything else in the world.

I don't think it can simply be answered with a 'respect all choices' approach because any policy or social change you suggest in this area must either make one option or the other more attractive.

margerykemp · 20/09/2012 12:00

Some women may want to 'choose' to kill men.

Giving people choice shouldn't always be legal...Grin

BrightEyes82 · 20/09/2012 12:53

For me, that is a huge part of feminism - liberating both men and women from the gender straitjacket society has put on them. That's why Fm is good for men also, if only they would realise it!!

I agree with this.

But for me more equality for everyone is the goal not just liberating women which is why I think feminism has been superseded by equality. I dont feel my gender defines me or links me just to one groups cause (in the case of feminism women).

I dont have a well thought out well developed stance on these kind of things but equality for all genders, races and people has always been close to my heart. So do we still need feminism or should it just be part of a wider equality movement?

FastidiaBlueberry · 20/09/2012 14:05

ooh, with regards to analysing the choices of getting yer tits out, I've just come across this brilliant book review and had a lightbulb moment
weekwoman.wordpress.com/2012/09/18/kate-gould-exposes-the-phallacies-surrounding-flashing-review/

She talks about the uselessness of giving rape alarms to women (rather than giving them guns or machetes or getting men to stop raping them)

"the effectiveness of which was entirely dependent on it gaining the intended response, recalling the female flasher, or the page 3 model, whose ?empowerment? relies upon getting the correct response ? that is, an empowerment which relies upon an outside actor. In other words, no empowerment at all, just the same tired rehearsal of gender power relations whereby men act, and women ?act? by attracting others to act upon us."

I've often struggled to articulate why lapdancing etc. is not empowerfulising - it's because if men laugh at you and shout how your arse is too big and your tits are too saggy, it's not empowering is it? It's only empowering if people give you positive feedback and say how beautiful you are and that means you're being validated by other people, not by yourself, when you take your clothes off and bask in the approval of others. I've never heard a stripper say she felt empowered by men telling her her breasts were too small or her vulva not the right shape. So in the end, the power is with the person who is giving the validation, not with the person begging for the validation.

FoodUnit · 20/09/2012 14:46

"For me, that is a huge part of feminism - liberating both men and women from the gender straitjacket society has put on them. That's why Fm is good for men also, if only they would realise it!!"

I disagree with this slightly. Gender roles aren't just 'straightjackets' they are also codified expectations and behaviours that represent and perpetuate unequal power between the sexes.

When you peice these roles together, they condition males to act as oppressor (mostly without realising they are being oppressive) and to condition females to accept the inevitability of their oppression by males (and in fact to glorify submission/pain/endurance/putting others first in women). And these codified behaviours when put together enable men as a class to continue to oppress women as a class.

So really men are only going to feel liberated from their role if being an oppressor truly isn't what they want, and in fact an equal relationship with women is what they want. This will mean relinquishing all the advantages being born male has given them over females.

I think many men, hand on heart would not actually want this. 'Advantages' are everything in this world and very few people are willing to forsake themselves for the general good.

I'm not saying that there aren't nice men out there who would be willing to forsake themselves and even find the rewards of companionship and collaboration with females worth the losses, but I think they are not the majority.

From what I've witnessed there is usually a massive gulf between what people say (I respect women as equals and the more in power the better) and what they really want (women-abusive porn on tap and to be 'one up' in all cases)

FoodUnit · 20/09/2012 14:51

"So in the end, the power is with the person who is giving the validation, not with the person begging for the validation."

Absolutely

vesela · 20/09/2012 15:13

BrightEyes, for me feminism is about freedom from misogyny, and goes hand in hand with general freedom from misoxeny (hatred of strangers). It's all about having less hatred.

SomersetONeil · 21/09/2012 06:41

I've often struggled to articulate why lapdancing etc. is not empowerfulising - it's because if men laugh at you and shout how your arse is too big and your tits are too saggy, it's not empowering is it? It's only empowering if people give you positive feedback and say how beautiful you are and that means you're being validated by other people, not by yourself, when you take your clothes off and bask in the approval of others. I've never heard a stripper say she felt empowered by men telling her her breasts were too small or her vulva not the right shape. So in the end, the power is with the person who is giving the validation, not with the person begging for the validation.

Fantastic.

NormaStanleyFletcher · 21/09/2012 15:40

Agreed. Fantastic

BeyondTheLimitsOfAcceptability · 21/09/2012 15:44
Grin

can you recommend any books I can read about it that are preferably free on kindle

EatsBrainsAndLeaves · 23/09/2012 03:02

With any practice like lapdancing that is supposed to be empowering for women - just think if it really was s empowering, why are men not doing it? They are not doing it because they know it is a lie. Lapdancing and assorted practices are not empowering at all/

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EatsBrainsAndLeaves · 23/09/2012 03:17

Beyond - Not sure exactly what you want to read? I only know about free resources on the net for books, articles or blogs about radical feminism, so if you are interested in other types of feminism someone else will have to recommend suitable reading material.

This link takes you to free download books/articles about radical feminism.
radfem.org/

This link takes you to a site that has a list of the main radical feminist blogs. radfemreader.blogspot.co.uk/

This link takes you to a site that has lots of interesting articles about radical feminism. radicalhub.com/

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flatpackhamster · 24/09/2012 13:40

EatsBrainsAndLeaves

With any practice like lapdancing that is supposed to be empowering for women - just think if it really was s empowering, why are men not doing it? They are not doing it because they know it is a lie. Lapdancing and assorted practices are not empowering at all/

There are plenty of male strippers and male escorts out there.

TheDoctrineOfSnatch · 24/09/2012 13:48

Flat pack do you consider that male strippers and male escorts are empowered?