Why don't dads care as much as mums? Sorry for provocative title!

[Greythorne]

I was chatting to a male friend who is a Dad last night about how the division of labour in families works (or doesn't). About how many women start by taking sole care of their newborns and over time, this becomes a pattern, leading to families where mums do the lion's share of housework, supervising of homework, shopping for school uniform, organising school holiday cover etc. Etc......even when both parents work outside the home. And we discussed how essy it is to fall into this pattern and that it takes a conscious decision to do it more equitably.

Then he made a thought-provoking remark. "Until there's a www.dadsnet.com where thousands and thousands of dads debate the benefits of breast versus formula and ask about the minutiae of rubber-soled PE pumps and advice about sleep training a toddler and what to do when your 3 year old suddenly starts wetting the bed....I will always believe that women are instinctively more attuned to that stuff and though unfair, it will always mean a battle to get dads to shoulder their burden of parenting."

I hate to be biologically determinist, but I kind of see his point. Why do dads (on average) not care as much as mums (on average) about this stuff?

Perhaps i may (with some trepidation) weigh in here as a 'self-identified' man on mumsnet.
I'm always wary of generalising in terms of gender bias and parenting, i 'care' just as much!
Though not a SAHD, due to our working patterns (as in DW works full time and i'm studying full-time for a PhD) the division of labour in our family is pretty evenly split. Certainly DW does more cleaning, mainly because i'm very messy and just don't see the dirt...but that does not extend to laundry etc.
I do most of the pickup-drop off for school/nursery, organise (and cover most of) the holidays , am just as interested in uniforms, clothes, education, and washing the vomit from DD/S's hair at 2am. I talk about these things with other male and female friends.
Maybe it's just the middle-class academic bubble i live in, and i recognise (even in my own extended family) the kind of people discussed above, but i feel a bit saddened when i read generalising thread titles like this.
None of it is biologically determined, it's a matter of choice; some people are, rightly or wrongly, disinterested.

Massive generalization.my Dh is definitely the one who will be worried about school and involvement. I am the one who will send kidlet to school grubby.I think it is how you are raised. Dh was youngest and the only boy.the older sisters,Sohn and all that.I have four older brothers and my mom went back to work after 6 weeks.I probably act more a you all describe men and he acts more as you describe women.he is trying to see if he can change his hours to be a SAHD. the idea of staying home like that is not some I would do well...

Tempernillo my DH does at least 50% of the clearing up at home. I am convinced this is because, for years, I was rather a slob and would never bother to pick up towels, put on laundry, etc etc. So he ended up doing it. In other words I acted like a stereotypical man.

Then I ended up doing more because I felt guilty that he was doing it all. (perhaps a stereotypical man would not have done this). It now evens out to about 50% I think.

So maybe the only way to get men to care more, is to care less ourselves? I realise though that you can't ignore a hungry DC in the same way you can ignore a wet towel on the floor ...

Stupid phone SAHM and three sisters

auntlucy nailed it. I believe this is the case for the majority of men.

Paleodad another self identified man.

I tend not to send birthday cards to siblings; because I never ever have...
I'll clean what I notice is dirty, and hoover on Saturdays, because I hoover on Saturdays..
I do washing on Monday mornings because I do washing on Monday mornings.

Far more pattern than it needs doing.

I did virtually all night feeds for my DC and dressed/cleaned up after them, too when I wasn't working and XW was on shift.

Being old, and with now adult children, I ten to post on stuff that interests me or I've noticed in 'Active'. That's included feeding, dogs, education, travel.

Mostly Relationships. AIBU and occasionally FWR.

I talk openly to most people about most things - including for example how much I hated French plaits :-( when DD was younger and I had to help. Taught both of them to bike, climb, change plugs and cook pancakes. Got up with them at night, potty trained them, changed we beds, sat by them in hospital...

Why do you think dads (on average) not care as much as mums (on average) about this stuff? I don't think that's the case, necessarily. Depends where you draw your sample from I would have thought?

I got conditioned into being criticised all the time for anything I did in the house re childcare and housework. My idea of clean seemed to differ from my exs and I do think there is a time and a place for cleaning - and it isn't 10.30pm when she decided to mop the floor rather than cuddle up on the sofa.

So I learnt that what I did was never good enough despite my best efforts. As for DS, I learnt that if I had an opinion, it was not the correct one because Ex differed. And being mum trumped being dad.

As for clothes, I was not over worried if things weren't tucked in Or hair was a bit messy. DS survived.

She would also give the house a massive clean up if anyone was coming round. Not a token clean but a massive clean.

Why - because she felt it all reflected on her, Not on us. But on her. She felt DSs appearance reflected on her. And her parenting ability.

I care a lot about DS. But I'm not going to worry about every little thing and analyse everything he does or we need in great detail. Somehow children got through history without all this worrying and analysis.

And I was heavily involved in childcare. Just not in decision making because ex felt the need to do that. And it's easier to go along rather than have constant disagreements.

We do care just as much.

Because they don't have to ....

Ok I'll do a sweeping generalisation as well.

I think mothers see their children as more theirs than the fathers , so they care that bit more.

Because women feel that they are being watched and judged by others around them, and need to 'care' more in order to keep things ticking over...

...not saying all women feel that way, but I'd guess many do.

The ironic thing is they're probably being judged about their house and their children by other mums. Not by dads who probably aren't as judgemental. So they go all out to care more and to keep things ticking over to look like good mums to other mums.

Whereas dads just aren't as bothered about how they come across to other dads.

You said it in the first sentence- 'the mother takes care of the new born'.
Generally, and certainly in our case, neither of us had any experience of babies and we worked it out together. In many cases the mother suddenly becomes the 'expert' who has to tell him what to do. Breast feeding means that you do a lot but you can actually go out from the start and just leave him to it for an hour, let him change nappies, change clothes without telling him which ones etc, take them out without you. It is hardly surprising that the DH then leaves her to it and doesn't suddenly slot in when she finally allows him to get on with it. It seems very unfair to me that the woman gets time alone and the man very rarely gets the same.

That's exactly why I used to work weekends out of the country, exotic.

Dh is every bit as capable of raising babies as I am, he just doesn't lactate.

I'm sure if I was the man and had never been left alone, never thought capable of bathing the baby without supervision, never been left to make a decision without deferring to 'senior management' - I would just quietly bow out and leave her to it. It is then very difficult to then get back in when the woman decides that you should be capable- especially if she is still issuing instructions. As equal parents from day 1 she should be able to pop out for an hour without leaving instructions.

cantthinkofadadsname has a good point. I think women probably do care more about certain aspects of parenting (e.g. kids looking tidy, house being clean, etc.) because they feel, correctly, that any judgements of these tasks will be of them, as society still expect this to be a woman's role. I recognise the "massive clean" phenomena.

However I dont think Dads careany less about their own kids, or love them any differently. I'm not sure that's what the OP meant to imply either.

I've had some good debates with my friends who are also mums, about ironing school shirts.

I'm in the 'do not' camp. I'm in a minority.

I think there is biological cause at the root of it, but then this is overlaid by social expectations and the effect of women tending to spend more time on childcare in the early years and becoming expert.

Because of the way our reproductive systems work, over the course of human history most women have successfully raised at least a few children, while a much greater proportion of men have died without any offspring and a few have fathered many. The reproductive pressures are different. From a biological/evolutionary point of view: For a woman who is pregnant or looking after a small child she is invested in that child and would be worse off (in terms of number of offspring she eventually leaves) if she put her energies elsewhere. For a man whose partner has a small child (which might not be his) a strategy of putting some energy into other things (playing the field, winning status) could result in more offspring than being 100% devoted to childcare.

Of course we don't live like that anymore, but I do think these pressures have shaped human nature.

I don't think we should be biologically determinist, but I do think we should be aware of how our different instinctive tendencies to be willing to give up the world for young children play out. In particular trying to dismantle structures which mean that what happens in the first few years of parenthood tend to have disproportionate economic and social effects which lock people into roles they didn't chose.

I think as well that some men really don't care about being judged. It doesn't matter to them too much what other people think.

I also don't think men judge other children's appearance too much or the house appearance. Unless it's absolutely disgusting.

'Grey what does your friend think would happen if 90% of women did a Xenia went back to work after two weeks with the dads staying home for 6-12 months thereafter?'

I went back to work four months after giving birth and had a SAHP for the next 6 years. What happened?
We divided things up equally like we did before we had children, when I came home he worked from home and we all had time with the DC and time to do our own hobbies and activities on our own.
He cares about them as much as I do, but then I've never fussed too much about how the rest of the world raised their children, nor did I constantly seek advice or reassurance on minutia. Neither did he.

'And we discussed how essy it is to fall into this pattern and that it takes a conscious decision to do it more equitably.'

Takes effort and discussion and compromise. Which is hard work. But so is being a parent and so is being in a stable partnership.

I am a WOHM DH is a SAHD

He cares just as much, does more childcare and talks about DS non stop

He doesn't give a flying monkeys about housework though, nor does he do any.