Why don't dads care as much as mums? Sorry for provocative title!

[Greythorne]

I was chatting to a male friend who is a Dad last night about how the division of labour in families works (or doesn't). About how many women start by taking sole care of their newborns and over time, this becomes a pattern, leading to families where mums do the lion's share of housework, supervising of homework, shopping for school uniform, organising school holiday cover etc. Etc......even when both parents work outside the home. And we discussed how essy it is to fall into this pattern and that it takes a conscious decision to do it more equitably.

Then he made a thought-provoking remark. "Until there's a www.dadsnet.com where thousands and thousands of dads debate the benefits of breast versus formula and ask about the minutiae of rubber-soled PE pumps and advice about sleep training a toddler and what to do when your 3 year old suddenly starts wetting the bed....I will always believe that women are instinctively more attuned to that stuff and though unfair, it will always mean a battle to get dads to shoulder their burden of parenting."

I hate to be biologically determinist, but I kind of see his point. Why do dads (on average) not care as much as mums (on average) about this stuff?

Because if they had an opinion, they know that the mum's opinion would be the one that got taken into account and their opinion didn't actually matter?

I'm not sure Mumsnet would be so widely used if mums didn't start using it during maternity leave and SAHMing, then continue thereafter.

That probably is the time the focus on the detail like teat types ha

I think he has cause and effect reversed. I do not believe women instinctively care more about children's shoes and therefore decide to be the ones staying home with newborns. I believe that women generally care more about everything related to DC because they are the ones usually staying home with babies.

...happens.

Also it is probably more common for women to seek this kind of advice rather than assuming they will figure something out. Generalisation of the "who reads the manual" ilk but whilst we are generalising...

(PS I resisted the two word answer "the patriarchy")

I guess it stems from the fact that women are te ones that go through pregnancy, childbirth and feeding if choice is BF.

Also -culturally men don't make small talk about their children in the same way and this is due to society conditioning them.

But st home DP is just as caring as I as he does a lot of child are, he is just as likely to get up, cuddle, kiss sore knees, fret about the kids as I am. He just doesn't share this with male friends, preferring to talk about football.

I think men don't like asking for advice either..it's similar to the reasons why men fon't go to their doctor.

In our family, I do the investigative work into choosing schools, food, products etc because I have more time to do so.

Even when I go back to work full time, I shall continue to do this, I imagine. Because I got into the habit of it, and now know where to start.

I don't think that men don't care, and I don't think that men don't talk about these things. I have listened to friends' DHs discussing the ins and outs of prams, car seats, food etc.

And if you look at the male dominated fora, you will find there are some threads about this kind of thing. Not as much as on MN, I grant you, but they do talk about them.

Also is he aware that thousands of us are just talking shit having important political and cultural debates?

I could be wrong, but when I do see men on MN, it tends to be on the politics, current affairs, feminism boards.....I haven't clocked men asking advice about whether to send their DC to nursery if they have a cold or how to manage school uniform items getting lost (to pick at random two live threads today). But obviously, not a scientific survey.

And, yes, Idid point out that MN was much, much more than the stuff he mentioned.....politics, advocacy, inane chatter, support, spooof threads, the whole lot.

I read recently that AIBU, relationships and (I think) Chat were the most popular topics on MN.

Pregnancy was I think 4th.

Would be interesting to know that.

In our family I do more than Dh with regard's school stuff/DD because I am at home more. I wanted to be the one who took time off after DD was born and I wanted to be the one who returned PT in order to look after DD. It made far more sense for it to be that way for us.

So yes, I do a lot of the stuff but it doesn't mean DH doesn't care. He still comes to all parent's evenings, he will help with homework if it is being done when he is home, he will come to secondary school open days this term, he will have an opinion. DH does the morning school run and is he one who goes to morning assemblies when it is DD's turn, and he goes to family breakfast every Friday for bacon butties.... etc. He does his share of school holiday cover too.

Grey I think there are so few self-identified men on here that it's hard to draw any conclusion. Also I don't think I've started many if any advice threads - I would search and read or look at one i Active that caught my eye eg about sleep. I read a fair few threads on Primary Education but never asked any questions - so men may be reading not posting.

Also the title is a barrier, I don't expect it changed as it is the brand, but there it is.

I agree with cause and effect. My dp does as much childcare as I do, and consequently makes just as many parenting decisions as I do.

Er, it's all tosh, though, isn't it?

If 70% of the male race was stuck indoors every day of their lives for ten hours (well, alright, for five or ten years solid) alone with snotty toddlers and crying babies, I imagine they'd care just as much to want some adult company and gravitate to shared experience. Snot, tears and milk.

It's not exactly rocket science. His 'evidence' about both partners working is still in the context of existing societal norms.

He's an idiot, trying to be clever.

He mansplained. And you didn't say 'what a load of hokey, chap.'

We had a row about this very subject last night. DH may or may not be able to get Leave to cover the 1/2 terms this year. But his way of dealing with it is to wait and see what happens. As I ended up screaming at him patiently explaining if he isn't going to be around then somebody needs to find and book (and pay for) a Holiday Club, and what's the betting that person will be me .

With him it's just that he can't be bothered. Don't know what all the other dad's excuses are.

Good point madwoman.

Grey what does your friend think would happen if 90% of women did a Xenia went back to work after two weeks with the dads staying home for 6-12 months thereafter?

Also agree he has cause and effect mixed up.

Maybe it's because women are conditioned from an early age that they ought to care more about these things. That this is their role and duty.

The existence of sites like mumsnet (with no equivalent dadsnet) simply reinforces that conditioning. As does the unequal maternity/paternity leave provision. As do all the fecking washing powder/ Dettol/supermarket etc ads which always show a mother agonising over stains, germs etc and never a father.

We won't know whether there is any inbuilt bias until we get rid of all these social messages that tell girls and women that they and not men are the ones who must care about all this stuff.

I agree with Tempernillo, cause and effect.

DH and I share childcare and WOH. And DH does in fact have a form of dadsnet - at work. He and his colleagues regularly chat and share advice about childrearing. It is an all-male IT department.

perhaps the dads just know the mums will pick up the slack

alos dads just seem to care less, liek my dh loves dd to bits but hes not bothered if she goes to school with her hair messy or unifrom a but grubby

hes alos not bothered if the house looks messy or needs a good clean

where as i am bothered by those things

its a good question why though....

It's easier not to care when you have a qualified loving adult next to you dealing with it all first, and your main roles are 'critic' (i.e 'you'll do it darling, and I'll wait and tell you how you did it wrong) and 'understudy'. I might not care so much if I had one of those, too.

I think it's a variation on the fact that it tends to be women who think it is important to remember birthdays, relatives etc. even when they are his relatives.

Massive generalisation there but probably comes under the heading 'wifework'

I know what you mean about having an understudy. I loathe housework but still feel the pressure to keep the house clean. Dp says I shouldn't care so much, but that is easy to say when you have never had to live in a dirty house as a woman always cleans it (eventually). I often wonder what great things I could achieve in my life if I didn't spend half of it folding clothes and cleaning sodding bathrooms. Anyway rant over, gone slightly off topic there!