My feed

to access all these features

Feminism: Sex & gender discussions

Chris Brown tattoo on another thread

23 replies

rosabud · 13/09/2012 07:31

In the "In the News" section of MN a thread has been started about the Chris Brown domestic violence tattoo. Although most of the posts are "he is horrible" type of thing, there are lots of comments like "she is a moron if she goes back to him" and even rather naive suggestions that now this has been in the news, teenage girls will know to avoid such men as they'll now realize how nasty they are. There is even a post which suggests the media are jumping to conclusions to assume the tattoo is of Rhianna and defending him on the grounds that the tattoo is not Rhianna so therefore he is now a victim of the horrible media! At least that was my interpretation of it!

I was going to answer but, quite honestly, didn't know if I was reading it all wrong (surely posters on MN can't be that naive/insensitive/stupid, can they?) and, also, there seemed to be so very much to say if I have read it all right, that I didn't know where to start.

Thoughts please.

OP posts:
KRITIQ · 13/09/2012 07:50

Deliberately trying to wind folks up? I haven't seen anyone anywhere on interwebs saying the tattoo was a good idea. I haven't seen any comments saying the 'poor chap' isbeing unfairly victimised. Most are saying he's a dick. So, my guess is someone wants a bunfight.

LRDtheFeministDragon · 13/09/2012 08:43

He's now said the tattoo is something else. This, obviously, doesn't excuse him and frankly, I don't see how you could not make the visual connection so I find it pretty distasteful.

But thread about a thread, and calling other posters naive/insensitive/stupid, never ends well.

Report on the thread if you must, but asking us to join in being rude about people who may be genuine and who're posting on another bit of the site is off, IMO.

EatsBrainsAndLeaves · 13/09/2012 09:51

Yes women here can can be that naive/insensitive/stupid.

rosabud · 13/09/2012 10:05

Oh sorry I didn't meant ot be rude! What I meant was, genuinely, surely the other posters can't be that insensitive or naive about domestice violence so I must be reading this wrong? What I wanted to do was answer the post with an explanation of how domestic violence isn't as simple as "she's a moron if she stays with him" but I didn't know how/where to start really. So guess I was asking some of you on here what you thought about it becuase a) have I read it wrong, or b) how on earth do you begin to answer all that?

I shouldn't have said stupid, that is rude, I think the word I was looking for is, maybe, misinformed.

OP posts:
LRDtheFeministDragon · 13/09/2012 10:09

Sorry, I have to say, I reported this which I now feel bad about ... it's just, I'm actually worried that if someone off that thread sees this, they'll kick off and feel it was an attack on them, which I can see you probably didn't mean.

Does that make sense? It's just that bunfights about feminism posters being rude about other MNers spring up with boring regularity and we all get called a lot of names, so I just really didn't want it to happen again.

rosabud · 13/09/2012 10:12

Oh dear I feel awful now!! Will slink away and not interfere for a bit!!

OP posts:
BertieBotts · 13/09/2012 10:14

Lots of people in general are naive about domestic violence... I don't think it's a personal thing it's just ideas and myths in society in general. It's what makes it so frustrating to try and raise awareness.

TheDoctrineOfSnatch · 13/09/2012 10:14

Rosa don't feel bad! Sometimes it's so hard to come across how you intend to!

There's another thread in FWR about the tattoo, you could always join that if you prefer.

LRDtheFeministDragon · 13/09/2012 10:15

Oh, no, don't feel awful! Honestly, it's not you I am bothered about, and I agree it's a totally sensible topic to discuss. I just don't want your thread to turn into a bunfight/more ammunition for the 'nasty feminists' brigade.

Can you re-post the OP without reference to the other thread, and just make it a discussion about how to break down the myths around DV? Please don't slink away, if anyone should feel bad it's me for doing this so clumsily!

mayorquimby · 13/09/2012 12:31

"There is even a post which suggests the media are jumping to conclusions to assume the tattoo is of Rhianna and defending him on the grounds that the tattoo is not Rhianna so therefore he is now a victim of the horrible media! At least that was my interpretation of it!"

Can I ask if that was my post? because if that was what you interpretted from my post then you've completely misinterpreted it.

SaraBellumHertz · 13/09/2012 12:40

I'd like an explanation (genuinely) as to why one can't describe a woman like/in the circumstances of Rhihanna as a moron for going back to a man who beat her?

LRDtheFeministDragon · 13/09/2012 12:45

Well, you can, but it's pretty nasty.

Firstly because some people would find the term 'moron' offensive anyway.

But secondly, because we know that people who've been in abusive relationships do quite often develop a very skewed sense of how they need to be behaving, what they deserve from a partner. It's a bit like Stockholm Syndrome. She is obviously a talented and successful woman, but many abused people are talented and successful and still, deep down, believe they deserve this sort of relationship, or that 'he only does it because I hurt him' or 'he only does it because he's passionate and can't control himself'. It is awful.

I don't think you can blame someone or see it as stupidity, because I think these people aren't in a position where they're seeing things quite straight.

Besides, if your DD were (really) someone with a very low intelligence, it wouldn't be ok for her to be beaten up by a partner ... I don't know if it makes sense, but I'd also say that, if we said Rhinna's a moron for going back, it sounds as if we're saying, if she really were very unintelligent, it would somehow be ok that she got hurt.

SaraBellumHertz · 13/09/2012 13:02

Thanks. I agree calling someone a moron is not on - I was interested in exploring the specific reasons why one shouldn't challenge someone for returning to an abusive relationship.

I was thinking about this in the context of the many many threads i have read in Relationships (and one particular one today which bugged me- hence this post) where woman who have affairs with mm are called stupid/whores/selfish etc and I always find the difference in attitude towards woman who have suffered violence from their partner and woman who end up in what are often horribly emotionally abusive relationships with mm curious.

LRDtheFeministDragon · 13/09/2012 13:06

I'm not keen on calling someone stupid or a whore, either. That's horrible.

But I do think it is different. Women who go back to abusive relationships are, sadly, usually hurting themselves primarily. OTOH people who cheat, are primarily hurting someone else.

I suppose it is possible that there are reasons why someone would be inclined to cheat with married men (and I do think in this situation, it's the married cheater who is more to blame than the unmarried one). I don't know of any, though? Whereas we do know that there's a really strong pattern with abuse victims.

I think challenging someone who goes back to an absusive relationship can be the right thing, though. If it's someone I know, I would, if she or he could take it, because they might listen. If it's someone famous, there's the whole 'role model' issue. I'm not keen on the idea she's got a 'responsibility as a role model', but at the same time, I feel really sad that she is a role model and some women will think her example shows it's ok.

SaraBellumHertz · 13/09/2012 13:37

I would imagine that women who sleep with married men have huge self esteem issues, which I've always assumed is the same of woman who stay with abusive men. That is why I make the comparison. and why it particularly grates.

Especially as I don't see it as so black and white as a woman who is abused is is primarily hurting herself- the damage her choices inflict on her DC can be as great as the damage she does to herself. I take your point that a woman who has an affair with a MM is hurting the partner of the MM (although primarily that is i believe the responsibility of the MM) but surely they damage themselves also - although I realise this is a great big tangent!

I think the issue with herring a role model is not so much that woman will think it is ok more that woman will think well if she can't leave, with her money, opportunities, fame and beauty, then what chance does the woman trying to bring up 4 kids on a shoestring have.

LRDtheFeministDragon · 13/09/2012 13:39

That is quite possible. I wouldn't know enough about it.

But I do think it is different. I don't see that an abused woman is hurting her DC - her partner is. She's not responsible for what he does. IMO.

I know what you mean though, if you were seeing it in a friend, of course you would be frustrated and wishing they'd get the hell out. Sad

I agree completely about the 'what chance' aspect.

KittensInaHalfShell · 13/09/2012 14:31

I think most children of domestic violence will blame the non abusive parent to a degree LRD> You aren't responsible for another person's behavior but you are certainly responsible for protecting your children. *

Put it this way, if there is a hot stove in my house and one of my children burns themselves... yes they burnt themselves on the stove, but it's my duty to get in there and stop it happening.

I think also with dv people tend to worry about being so over the top deferential to the woman being abused they don't see she is often making a choice to stay. My mother enjoyed the drama of the hot and cold relationship she had with my father. She would bait him and goad him in to hitting her. This isn't about victim blaming I would watch her, say "go on hit me then". She wanted the arguments the massive blow out then the over the tops declarations of love. Absolutely. She could have left, she wouldn't have been abused after she left and he didn't bother her on the many occasions when they separated. She was very pretty and had other boyfriends but they didn't give her the drama she wanted. This isn't a popular view on the feminism forum.. but it's true in my experience. Eventually my mother left my father when he basically grew bored of her and was cheating. SO she was mentally totally capable of leaving him.. The fact that I had to watch her being abused and was also violently attacked wasn't enough to make her leave him. She left when it suited her. She causes lots of over the top drama in all her personal relationships and with me and my sister too. It's a personalty fault as far as I am concerned. I know many won't blame her because she is "victim" of her circumstances etc, but I think if you give her a free pass then you should give my dad one too. He was physically abused by his father and made a little prince by his mother. When my mother didn't treat him the same he reacted abusively.

But I believe grown adults are responsible for all their actions.

I know there are many women who have no other resources and are genuine victims of dv with no way out. Or are being stalked by partners, they should be given as much sympathy and help as possible.

*Just my view as a child victim of dv and everyone I know in a similar situation.

KittensInaHalfShell · 13/09/2012 14:33

Sorry for the essay! Blush

I find this subject particularity upsetting

LRDtheFeministDragon · 13/09/2012 14:46

I'm so sorry. I didn't intend to upset you or anyone else, I should have thought and written more sensitively.

You are right, of course, I can see why children would resent the non-abusive parent too.

I don't feel it is the same as the hot cooker example though. A cooker an inanimate object - a parent should protect their children against that. But an abusive parent or spouse is doing something they themself could prevent.

I know it's not my place to judge, and I'm not judging - but, I do strongly feel that talking about 'genuine victims of dv' is wrong. There aren't any 'fake victims of DV'. Your mum and dad sound to have had a co-dependent relationship and it must have been horribly scary for you. I don't excuse that. But it doesn't mean she wasn't a genuine victim of DV IMO.

I think someone can be a victim and also to blame for their own behaviour.

SaraBellumHertz · 13/09/2012 14:49

And I would be inclined to argue that it is not the woman who is hurting the MM's wife it is the MM.

I'm just a bit sick of all the woman hating in whatever guise.

SaraBellumHertz · 13/09/2012 14:51

Kittens sorry my post was sitting waiting to be sent for ages and it was sent before I read your post Sad

KittensInaHalfShell · 13/09/2012 15:00

No, it's fine LRD, it was sensitively written. Just a very different view point, one I struggle with as I agree with most feminist view points but this is one I can't.

No problem Sarabelumhertz :)

LRDtheFeministDragon · 13/09/2012 15:01

I see your point there sara. I would say it is often the woman too, but it does depend. Sometimes one of the 'cheating' parties doens't know the other is married, in which case it's very obviously not their fault!

I do find it disturbing that so much anger is directed at the 'other woman', as if the man had nothing to do with it at all.

Please create an account

To comment on this thread you need to create a Mumsnet account.