Women only playbarn

[blackcats73]

I just wondered what everyone thinks of the following story;

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2185041/Fathers-banned-play-centres-women-decree.html

I sort of understand the women only rule but boys over 9????? Though my Ds (8)is outgrowing playbarns anyway.

Some of the comments (yes I know it's the Daily Mail) from both sides are offensive.

Sorry, not a very coherent post. I'm still trying to work out what I think.

Firwala..there are other well known soft play areas in Birmingham, but for someone living in that particular area, it can be very costly to get to the other play areas if they don't have their own transport. Its very unfair for dads/men/uncles... to have to go elsewhere when they might have one nearby.

What if you're a woman on her own for some reason, with no other family or friends who can act as babysitters, with a son over the age of 9. What do you do with him while you're at the play centre with you're other kids and he is not even allowed inside?

Why is there no age restriction on girls?

Oh dear, Messy - you are right. That blows my little rant out of the water, because I went to a single sex school and will probably send my daughter to one, and I think they are a good thing. So who am I to decide when and in what circumstances women/girls should mix with men or not? Segregation only irritates me when it relates to things I don't think should be segregated. Hypocrite, much?

Also, I actually don't like the idea of banning anything, not even women-only soft play. People should be free to do and go what and where they they like. I just wish that socially, segregation wasn't necessary because I think eventually it leads to discrimination against women, despite perhaps in the short term seeming to be in their best interests. I think this probably does apply to segregated shcools too. Girls do better at them because they hang back in the presence of boys (simplistically) but possibly failing to mix with boys as children makes them less confident in dealing with them throughout their lives? And maybe, for boys, they would treat girls and women better if they mixed with them on a day to day level as children and realised they are just human beings too. But, there again, plenty of schools are mixed - does it work like that? I am not sure. There are just too many other influences on both sexes I suppose.

Anyway, I will shut up now but watch this thread with interest.

I wonder how far The Equal Opportunities Commission will go on this or will they just let it die a death and hope the problem will blow over,my DH used to take our DCs to play group when they where small along with other dads who helped with childcare when we where working opposite shifts the country has gone soft on this I think and are to frightened to upset people.

MummyPigsFatTummy Don't worry! I am always having my rants blown out of the water! I also lean towards segregated schooling for girls but have a problem with the principle.

I think that one of the general problems is that whilst integration is excellent in theory, study and experience show that girls and women often suffer in an integrated environment because men/boys tend to dominate the conversation/agenda. That sounds very harsh against the male sex and I don't think it's necessarily intentional but some examples that come up in a mixed environment are:

• the topics that come up for general discussion relate to men (men are more prevalent in pop culture. Female topics are generally considered either icky or not interesting)
• women/girls are overly aware of the male gaze (culture's obsession with female appearance and the knowledge/presumption/experience that men judge us for our looks)
• women/girls don't speak up as much as they would in single sex environments (socialization instills a fear of being seen as pushy and opinionated.)
• women/girls don't take the lead (for same reasons & we are often taught that men are natural leaders)
• girls' interests are devalued - ("don't be a girl" is a common insult heard at school and of all the movies that DS has seen at school only one has had a female protagonist - boys simply are not expected to be interested in "girl" stuff. Fashion is frivolous. Football is cool.)

I think these are issues that mean single sex schooling is better for girls. Obviously the ideal is that these problems will be eradicated and that women will be integrated into the mainstream (as well as men welcomed into womenstuff), but until they are, it seems a tad unfair to force women to integrate and feel uncomfortable, and I suppose the nursery incident is a mild example of that.

Like I said, I'm divided on the issue!

I really don't get it. What happens in other places you take your kids? Are there going to be women only sessions at the library? At playgroup?

You don't have to talk to anyone at play centres, or even make eye contact if you don't want to. It just gives some men more ammunition to ridicule feminism and women's rights.

The are already lots of women only and men only groups all over the UK, astronaut.

Also swimming pools have women only sessions. Our church has a men only group that meets. It's not that unusual.

What is unusual in this case is that they have banned males outright.

mummypig i think mainly due to clothing and religious covering requirements, for eg if you wear abayah or jilbab (the feet length baggy dresses that go over the clothes) it can be hard to climb up on the play equipment unless you pull your abayah up a bit and shows the clothes underneath which some women are not okay with. im not saying its impossible to climb around like that, i used to climb round in mixed soft play even when i wore it with full niqaab (i dont wear it at all any more anyway, only hijab & clothes) but some women just wouldn't. tbh if it was busy and there was a lot of men around then i probably wouldn't have - especially if its men from within our own community, if its some random non muslim dad then i know they wont give a 2nd thought about what we are are doing climbing up and show a bit of your jeans from under your abayah or whatever else it would be total non issue really but infront of very religious or strict men its just uncomfy. a lot of people are in the mindset that we dont even look at each other at all(i mean between men and women), a lot of the time dont even make eye contact or say a single word if you see your friends husband or something like that. so its just awkward being in a mixed area with things like this
not all muslim men & women are like this but it depends on the community and the people.

so having womens only things makes it easier for the women cos then we can feel more comfortable but i do think there needs to be a balance cos when too many things are womens only it means that the mums get stuck with all the kids and cant do things together as a family, so sometimes i do get a bit peed off with it myself if it was something on weekends then normally i dont go as i rather have a chance for their dad to spend time with the kids too but in general womens only environments are positive for us

i think the difference between soft play and playgroup/library is probably the more physical aspect. i can think of quite a few men (and women actually) who would argue its immodest for women to climb up in the playframe infront of men as they will expose the legs from under the abayah, might show their shape etc etc, its "not suitable" - i dont think its that big of a deal myself, i would climb up there but it is hard for some people to do these things if people are looking at you and judging or saying haraam, inappropriate etc. i also do know men that wont let their wives even go out to the garden for kids to play incase neighbours see her out their window, even tho she is fully covered. so maybe segregated play centres atleast gives those women a chance to go where the husband would have otherwise not "permitted" it - not that its ideal situation the amount of control those husbands have in their marriages anyway, but if that is the case then these kind of things are a short term improvement as you wont totally change mindsets over night

Offensive much Helxi so people are halfwits is they read the tabloid press and can only remember the name of Huntley? I think what is stupid is your take on the "normal" person. Do you have an above average IQ? I'm guessing not so please do not question the IQ of other people.

Half the population has an IQ of 99 or lower: that's how it's calculated. Accusing someone of having a double digit IQ should not be an insult unless you are a hopeless misanthropist.

Can I just ask if all the mums are really climbing on the play equipment?? It seems really odd to me. I have never climbed on the children's play equipment in a playbarn/ softplay place. In the supervised ones, I just send them in and go and sit down to have a drink. In the non-supervised ones, I just wait at the bottom. Why would you need to climb up???

if you have younger kids then you have to climb up to supervise?? i used to climb up when my oldest one was a bit younger, now he is 4 so i send him in by himself and send the 2 year old in with him but when my oldest was like 2.5 or under 2 than had to go in and supervise them? i have seen loads of people going in with their kids sure its not just me!

Where I live, they are nearly all supervised (by paid employees, I mean). I've only actually been to one that wasn't supervised, but even there I never climbed up, nor did I see anyone else doing so. Perhaps people round here are more relaxed about it? Perhaps we are all negligent? I don't know. Anyway, all the parents watched from the bottom and just called out when necessary, even with very young children.

firawla, I am at work so would like to respond fully to your post later as some of the things you say are very worrying.

alexpolismum, a lot of parents of both sexes do end up climbing on the frame IME, yes. Generally, they are parents of advenurous toddlers who aren't prepared to stick to the ball pit or Little Tikes toys and want to be up and climbing. In DDs case, her legs aren't long enough for her to cover some of the gaps between steps, so DH or I get the job of assisting her to the top. It's good exercise actually, although, being on the larger side, squeezing between some of the rollers can be challenging!

Perhaps we are spoiled here, as I said, mostly these places have staff to supervise. You just hand your adventurous toddler over and go and sit down!

None of the soft play round our way is supervised in the sense of employees being there to help children climb. I think I should move!

Am I the only one that feels at firwala's post?

Sorry, firwala, that sounded a bit abrupt! Not at you but at the idea that a man would feel entitled to tell a woman that she is being inappropriate? Maybe this has happened in this particular nursery in which case it definitely is a good idea to keep those men out so the women are free to climb without fear of being told off.

It's just the other non-judgemental men that I feel for.

Personally I would boycott it.

Ladies only swimming I can understand.
But wearing a swimming costume in public is uncomfortable for many women for many reasons.

I used to go to our women's session because it was 7 not 8 and that fitted much better with feeding DD2 to sleep at 10. Also you could pottle and chat without being in the way of both fast men and women (who avoided us slow coaches) and came when it was all lanes.

So here we are encouraging the men to say look be a SAHM as I can't take the kids out? Seriously we are accepting that mothers are the carers and don't have careers? That's what the play centre looks like. I was a SAHM because XH earned more and when I remarried I was comfortable with looking after the kids and a little part time work. However by allowing women only play centre we are doing the patriarchy a favour and saying yes we accept our role and have no chance of being anything other than the primary carer.

None of the soft play around here is supervised and many parents go in and climb around with their younger children.

Not my style but it is certainly not unusual / considered odd or anything.

i do get women would be uncomfortable climbing infront of men, and it is a safe space. I probably wouldnt climb in the situation you described with brothers around, it would be very embarassing, i would probably ask my oldest dd to ask the brother to get my younger dcs down!

But sis cant the same be said for park etc? there are more men in park then soft play and I have defo climbed climbing frames in park more then soft play.

and also in my area we do have women only sessions at play groups, we also have under 25s sessions, and dads only sessions etc. whats the big deal?

Messy, I am with you being shocked at what firawla said. I think up to then I thought it was women being a bit too self-conscious. However, the fact that it is criticism from Muslim men they are worried about is terrible. I always understood that in Islam how much you choose to cover is a matter for you and not something another totally unrelated man at a soft play centre should be concerning himself with. I agree with messy that any such men shoud definitely be discouraged but the ones minding their own business shouldn't have to suffer.

And what is with men not letting their wives out in the garden in case the neighbours see them? If someone posted on here their husband did that, there would be calls to leave the bastard in seconds. No one would be suggesting she find herself a nice women- only place to hang out. This is not a criticism of you firawla- I get where you are coming from, but I think maybe creatng places like this is just going to make women even less equal and enable the sort of misogynistic man who wishes to exert control over women even greater scope for doing so. No excuse for women to mix at all in society if there are all these women-only places to go.

i dont think shes worried about criticism from muslim men, shes saying that she feels uncomfortable, that is her feelings, it is not as if she has anything to do with these random men, or if they are going to say anything to her or about her.

just to say, not all the men are like this though!!!! but i was just considering about those who are? also its not just men who judge but women too, and a lot of the time it is actually just from within the women themselves like you said.

with the stricter men its just an awkwardness thing - like even myself i would moderate myself infront of a more religious brother, compared to if i go to playgroup and some dads are there, there are a couple i do talk to but would be embarrased or shy infront of the religious ones cos u know that they dont wna talk either and its just a bit awkward.
I come across men who would say all this is inappropriate but they probably would not go up to random women and confront them about it though - but some of them do think it and would say it to women in their own family

actually about the inappropriateness etc, i suppose having women only for these reasons reinforces people's thinking that having mixed ones is not appropriate so then if it leads to people saying "there is womens only one, so why do you need to take your children to mixed soft play - haraaaaaam!!!" etc then this is a bad thing for us because instead of this thing offering just an extra alternative to women to feel comfy, then maybe it would go further and then create a restriction but i think most families would be more moderate than that, and just use it as a comfy meeting place for women and kids without taking it further like that?

just to say though i hope i havent given impression people only cover for the sake of what the men think, because vast vast majority of women are doing it for their own choice, because they want to do it for the sake of God. we do believe its told in quran to cover modestly, its not like we just have to do it or men will judge us - so i dont want to give that impression, it may have come across a bit wrong how i said that.