Drugs? Or simply too fast?

[grimbletart]

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-19058769

When Ye Shiwen swam the last leg of her 400 metre medley at the Olympics faster than the men's winner of their event I wondered how long it would be before drugs allegations came up after men started querying it as "unbelievable".

China has a history of drug abuse in swimming so we shall have to see the outcome, though it is - as would be expected - denied by Ye Shiwen and the Chinese team.

But, on the basis of innocent until proved guilty, it is interesting to see how quickly men dismissed it as unbelievable that a mere women could perform better than a man - though Duncan Goodhew has warned of the dangers of speculation.

www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/sport/olympics/olympics-goodhew-blasts-us-coach-over-china-teen-ye-shiwens-miracle-swim-16191915.html

All medal winners are dope tested so doubtless we will eventually know.

Can we just be clear on one thing, as this 'faster than the menz' thing is being flung about a bit. Overall, Lochte won the men's 400m IM in 4 minutes 5 sec. Shiwen won the equivalent women's race in 4 minutes 28 sec. So, overall there is a 23 second gap. No-one is claiming she is faster, just that she swam the last leg in a quicker time. This is quite possible if you have been holding something back in a race for the final sprint. It is something that the press have leapt on in their usual lazy, sensationalist fashion.

What we have here is a pissed-off Yank coach, sniping because his swimmer was beaten into second place - poor loser that he is. Everyone else, even the nasty menz , have leapt to Shiwen's defence.

As you said yourself OP, China has a history of drug abuse in swimming. The same presumptions would be there if a man had swum comparatively quickly. Don't see anything sexist in this.

I might be wrong but wasn't Clare Blading one of the first to say that her performance was "unbelievable". Actually it must be true because I read it on the Daily Mail website.

Sorry for the typo. I mean Balding of course.

And to be clear namechangeguy, that is all I said too. I was very careful to specify it was the last length that was being queried as too fast.

I thought it was beating her PB by 5 seconds that really raised eyebrows - that seems like a pretty huge margin! Really hope she is found to be all clear though.

Depends what people are saying. If the complaint is that she's too fast compared to previous then fair enough. If anyone is saying it's because a woman can't be quicker than a man then I'd have problems with that.

It is interesting to see reactions as women are starting to catch up with men in certain sports.

Google Michelle Smith. Eerily similar.

The media is playing up this faster than the man in the last couple of lengths thing because it gives an easy headline. The female race was obviously just less intense at the start and more intense at the finish.

I'm interested in why it would automatically be sexism to say that the fastest woman will never be faster than the fastest man in any sport where pure physical strength, speed and power at at issue. Men have more muscle mass, a greater proportion of muscles, denser muscles, stronger bones and tendons, more height, substantially more testosterone (THE key performance enhancer, which is what most steroids mimic) etc etc. This isn't really sexism, but a biological fact. I'm not sure how it serves women to tell girls they can run, swim etc as fast as men. They won't be able to, and it will lead them to compare themselves unnecessarily to men. It's different if we're talking about shooting, equestrian events where it is more about skill, coordination and dedication, but not Olympic swimming fgs.

I think it's the fact that some people think any woman who is as fast as a man must be on drugs, rather than she could just be that good.

There are stats that compare athletes according to their body weight and height which show men and women being truly comparable. If more sports were like boxing and categorized by weight or height then women would be able to compete against men.

I agree with tarai. Also, any athlete who's doing unexpectedly well will be under suspicion of cheating, nothing to do with sex.

Ye did an unlikely time, so people are naturally suspicious. People have been stripped off medals years after they've won them, because there weren't any tests for their method of cheating earlier.

I'm interested in why it would automatically be sexism to say that the fastest woman will never be faster than the fastest man in any sport where pure physical strength, speed and power at at issue.

That's not the sexist part.

Whenever a woman does significantly better then there has to be an excuse. For Caster Semenya the excuse was "she must be a man", for this swimmer it is "must be on drugs".

It doesn't happen with men - a man smashes a record, or wins a race and that's it.

Even when the man in question is found out to be a drug treat, Ben Johnson did cheat, but not one comentator or coach suggested it at the time.

I was listening to the late night discussion on BBC iplayer; they said that at her age, it's not uncommon to suddenly improve in leaps and bounds and that other swimmers had done similar - Ian Thorpe had knocked several seconds off his PB in one year at a similar age, for example and they mentioned another swimmer (whose name I've forgotten now) who had done similar, 5 seconds off their PB towards the end of the season from the beginning.

So, while I think that there is probably room for suspicion, it's just as likely that she has just started a spurt in her development.

Michael Johnson said that there is a small bit of this in track events as well, but not so much because there aren't so many people competing at that level at that age; by the time they've reached their peak competition standard, they're usually older.

It was interesting to hear their views, anyway.

As I was the person who raised this I just want to clarify. I am not saying that it was not the 5% record improvement that raised eyebrows eventually (although experts like Ian Thorpe made clear that big age group improvements are not unusual compared with the steady state improvement seen in more mature people). What I am saying is that if you saw the event and heard the initial follow up it was not until it became clear that her final length was faster than Lochte's that disbelief came from the US male coaches and other male swimming bods as if "hey can't have a woman being faster than a man - it is never possible" was the initial reaction - then came the 5% improvement disbelief.

I think the initial reaction was sexist (and TBH I am usually pretty relaxed about sexism and shrug it off).

Anyway we shall see....

'It doesn't happen with men - a man smashes a record, or wins a race and that's it.'

Really? Really?? So not sprinters, not cyclists, not shot putters.....flippin' eck. As for Ben Johnson, Carl Lewis called him out immediately. Also, look at Dwaine Chambers, Robert Millar etc. Lance Armstrong spent his whole career denying drugs charges, and is STILL being hammered by the French press because of his success, despite no proof. Floyd Landis was stripped of a Tour de France victory because of freakish performances.

This is a great thread with so many positives in it. However, some comments appear to come from feminists thrashing around blindly looking for sexism where there just isn't any.

Hats off to the women's football team last night. A real chance of a medal now.

The Americans always level doping accusations against those who beat them. There is no evidence whatsoever to suggest anything other than certain people being bad losers.

If you had people saying it in everyday life or some commentator who made a point of constantly going on about it then you could call it sexism but in the olympics its perfectly reasonable to say "err, she's just run the 100m faster than Usain Bolt she must be doping" because she would have to be doping. In all likelihood using some sort of bionic limb as well. It's just the way it is.

Tarai, in this case it's more like running the last 10 metres faster than Usain Bolt having jogged the first 90, so it isn't really comparable.

I heard a good discussion about this last night after she won her second gold. The gist of it was that anyone who dramatically increases their performances is likely to be suspected (and all medallists are tested anyway) but that at her age there can be sudden spurts in performance, with Michael Phelps having done similar around the same age.

But yes, to suspect her cos she was faster than a man is silly. To suspect her cos she has had a sudden spurt isn't.

sash "It doesn't happen with men - a man smashes a record, or wins a race and that's it. "

Do you follow any sports? That's absolute bollocks.