Positives and negatives of the Olympics.

[kickassangel]

Hopefully a fairly light hearted thread but thought we could keep a tally of the plus and minus sides of the Olympics.

Plus
Women from Saudi, and more women from other Middle Eastern States.
Women included in the military flag bearers
Future sports people fairly even m/f balance (and their sponsors)

Minus
Still more events for men than women
Still more men taking part, and given better status/accommodations etc
Women carrying the country names, and the bowl things during the parade.
Mainly women nurses with the children on beds.
Paul McCartney getting the 'men' to sing first and the 'girls' to have a go second.

I was hoping that I'd noticed some more positives, but apparently not.

What did other people notice?

That's amazing LRD. I suppose - when you think about it - it's not surprising that she's young. She probably hasn't developed a full consciousness yet about what she's doing or why it's remarkable.

Could be - her dad trained her and encouraged her, so certainly he also deserves credit, doesn't he? It must be really hard for him too.

LRD, I did see the Clare Balding thread. She is loved, it's great to see and gives me real hope.

Jessica Ennis doing brilliantly and again, nice to see so much support for a female athlete. Also saw all the other competitors hugging her afterwards, something I've seen a lot these games. I think it's just a lovely thing to see, of course they all want to win, but they seem genuinely happy for each other too.

Positive, charlotte dujardin at the dressage today. An awesome ride, whole crowd in raptures, getting a record score! She was brilliant.

Negative, the interview that was shown at the stadium after her ride was with her trainer (hestor), not her, who talked about how well she had responded to his training! His ride, in comparison, was slipping out of the medals...

Another negative, frequently describing Vicky Pendleton as 'highly emotional'.

Hmm, not sure if that IS exactly a negative, though it is a common female narrative. She described herself as an emotional mess and she is frequently seen weeping trackside.

Emotional can be a good thing too, no? Although it's not without its own problems, it's nice to see a very "feminine" athlete too. Maybe it encourages women to get into sport who are put off by the macho image.

Someone will have mentioned this, but a positive for me is UK women athletes getting out there and winning in front of the world, and the focus beach volleyball aside not being on their looks but on their athletic achievements and the effort they have put in. I'm particularly thinking of Kath Grainger - what a fantastic woman.

Clare Balding - a non-glamorous, open lesbian - doing a wonderful job in front of the cameras, the overwhelming response being completely positive, rather than focusing on her looks, her clothes, her sexuality or any other nonsense.

A negative - the nobber from the Telegraph. The bikinis in the beach volleyball make me slightly cat's bum mouth, but apparently the women themselves chose to wear them. I'm still a bit though.

yellow - the Clare Balding thread is fantastic, but I actually mean the one about the same article I linked to, that you commented about.

Horrible question from journalist to Victoria Pendleton about rival Anna Mears being "a cow".

Good on Vicky for essentially telling him to fuck off and not pander to his "women are such BITCHES" schtick.

yellow I just think the emotional woman narrative is so awful. It really makes me cringe. Like they're going to bring up PMT any second and we'll all be sent back home to do the washing-up...

I have seen the commentators talk about male competitors as being emotional too! It an euphemism/catch all for teary I think.

I guess that's a positive

Fair enough, I shall try not to cringe

Right, this is probably a temporary positive (cynic, me?), but you know how usually if you go on the Daily Mail even halfway decent articles have the most horrible, misogynistic comments underneath?

I just googled Karina Bryant - the super heavyweight Judo player who got bronze - and the Dail Mail article, for a miracle, is full of positive comments about her, even some that are feministly demanding why the Mail doesn't focus on more British sportswomen. Good, eh?

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2183222/London-2012-Olympics-Judo-Karina-Bryant-wins-bronze-Team-GB.html?ito=feeds-newsxml

(Erm, yeah. It's not a miracle: there's still a shot or two other women ... but, well, could be so much worse ...)

I really like events where the women's competition and the men's are all mixed up together, like tonight in track cycling and swimming (and in athletics too, I guess, but some things there are concurrent not consecutive). It feels more natural like "of course you're a swimming fan, here are some great races, the difference between one and the next might be the stroke used or the length of the race or the sex".

If the two get "equal billing" of this kind, I feel it breaks the loop of th nature: "women's football (for example) is rubbish so no one watches it do it isn't on telly so no-one watches it...and so on and so on."

Instead it is - YAY, more terrific cycling.

I hope that makes sense, it is late'

Massive bloody negative of the Games here

How will there ever be equality if women like Pendleton do this sort of shite?

Ariel I'm not sure what you mean. Can you explain?

Ennis Yes, I totally agree. All the sports, men's and women's, are given equal coverage (it seems to me). Last night I was in the pub and the women's basketball was on - everyone was watching it, cheering along, commenting on it. Can't see that happening for many women's sports throughout the rest of the year. Hopefully over time, it will become totally normal to watch women's sport and not just men's.

Positive - have heard many commentators saying that the women are running/riding/competing "aggressively", always said as a positive. It's so unusual to hear a woman described as a aggressive and for it to be a good thing.

OK, I will explain, though I wouldn't have thought it needed me to. Women athletes want to be treated on an equal footing as men, and have their sporting achievements recognised rather than their perceived attractiveness. And there is Pendleton having photos of herself taken whose purpose is solely to make her into a sex object. No one doubts her incredible achievements on her bike: her drive, her determination, her hard work and talent. So why is it necessary to try and boost her popularity with these photos? In my opinion stuff like that doesn't "empower" women athletes at all - it merely provides fodder for the type of men who decides to rate or not rate a woman athlete based on her "attractiveness" or otherwise. Would you see Kath Grainger doing a photoshoot like that? Would Jess Ennis be as popular amongst men if she wasn't pretty? Photoshoots like Pendleton's do not do women athletes any favours at all. In my opinion.

The women's boxing starts this weekend. You watch the backlash.

Ariel is there really any need to be so scathing to a fellow woman on what is a positive and light-hearted thread? I thought you were talking about the topic of the article - her relationship with someone who was in her team - rather than the photos.

I can see it from both sides. Victoria Pendleton enjoys doing those photoshoots, she likes "girly" stuff, she likes to look traditionally feminine. She is also a hard, aggressive rider. I don't know if I necessarily agree that women should never show off their bodies or be in traditionally feminine poses if that's what they want. I will be going out tonight in a short skirt and heels and I'd be horrified if my fellow feminists condemned that choice outright. Things are problematic, people are contradictory but I don't think there's any need to start tearing into each other.

On the other hand, yes, I am sick of successful women always taking their clothes off in a way that men don't seem to have to.

Would Jessica Ennis be as popular if she wasn't pretty? Of course women get more kudos than men do for their looks, but she is also super-muscular so it's nice to see someone who doesn't conform to a stereotype being seen as fanciable.

Why should I not be scathing about someone just because she is a woman? And I just SAID she was someone to be admired because of her drive, determination, hard work and talent, rather than tearing into her! And it is different to you going out in high heels and make up because (presumably) you are not in the public eye trying to win gold medals and to be taken seriously as an athlete. What Pendleton does in private is absolutely her own business - she is welcome to be as girly as she likes. She is welcome to wear make up and heels and wear nice clothes, and she is very pretty. But why try and court popularity by trying to make men want to shag you, which is in essence what her pics were about? She can be popular and famous enough through her incredible achievements, surely?

Well - David Beckham has appeared on posters all over London in his underpants and no one seems to think that detracts from his reputation as a sportsman?

Also, I don't think the decisions of individual women about photoshoots have any bearing on the wider issues we're discussing here.

Have you seen the photos of Louis Smith doing gymnastics with no clothes on? There were a couple of male track athletes as well, posing in sporting/Classical positions, as well as Victoria Pendleton and another woman athlete I hadn't heard of.

If we are going to have naked sportspeople, we should in the very least do it like that.