"Women are naturally better parents" - Please help me articulate why this is sexist!

[MrsMangoBiscuit]

Mainly a lurker over here, but I'm starting this thread in the hopes you can help. Someone I work with (a nice someone, by no means a jerk!) came out with "Well I think women just make better parents. It's genetic, that's why women have looked after the children for thousands of years." He doesn't think that means that women shouldn't work. When quizzed, he takes the very reasonable view that each family should do what's best for them. He thinks that men who make natural parents are a tiny lucky minority and not the norm.

He means the "women make better/make natural parents" thing as a compliment. Thing is, it's not. It's sexist, and I'm really stuggling to put into concise words, why it is. Help!

I have tried arguing the point with him, but always seem to get stuck. I won't go into it all here or this post will be an essay, I just didn't want to drip feed.

Someone mentioned on another thread learned helplessness' great phrase... ok the baby doesn't grown inside them but they choose to switch off' IMO.

They could get just as involved but some choose not to read up on things, attend appointments, plan what things they need to buy - their choice so if they start off behind - it is their fault.

Yes, as a few posters have said - us women do find it very difficult at first but we keep going, in many cases the men give up or `leave us to it' it isn't right.

Society has a role to play too IMO - as a lot of the `baby' groups are for mums as they tend to be the ones on maternity and they are midweek and then the father is left behind as friendships have been made. The midweek groups do help when your partner (not that I had one) are at work but weekend ones would help dads I think.

I hate that women give up many hobbies they had before while the male carries on with his as normal when baby is born putting himself in the `helper role'. OK some women don't help this cause in some instances but the men could force themselves into the role as they could and do in other instances.

I think women on average tend to be the better parents because they are more likely to subjugate their needs for those of their children

"But then OTOH again I've witnessed plenty of mothers who are horrid to their DC so if there is a maternal gene they've certainly missed it."

that's not the flip side to being an instant natural instinctive parent.. that's just being a shit person!

the flip side is being a good mother, but NOT a natural one, one that learns and has to research and seek help, but ultimately getting to the same goal as the natural instinctive ones

DH was more attuned in ways like he would always wake first if DS stirred, by the time I heard him and woke DH was already half way to the cot. I was better at the hazard identification but prob learnt that through work anyway. If DH wasn't there DS wasn't left to cry for hours, only a few more seconds till I heard him and got up, but it WAS always DH who heard him first

its not fair to say that the flip side to being a mother who feels it comes naturally is one that's horrid and "missed the maternal gene" - not fair at all!

I didn't miss any gene, DS was just the first baby I ever held for more than about 60 seconds! and probably only about the 10th baby I'ld ever held in my whole life!

Cherie...yes, I definitely think having this wonderful group of women around me has shaped me into being the mother I am. I get so frustrated at my husband for being clueless when it comes to our children, but you are so right....I had fantastic examples of motherhood and parenthood, whereas he didn't.

I don't believe for one second he is letting me do the majority of the childcare for his convenience...he GENUINELY believes he is not as good a parent as me, and he is right. He is honest about it and I respect that. He can't magic up the bond I have with them, and he entrusts their care to me rather than to himself.

"he GENUINELY believes he is not as good a parent as me, and he is right. He is honest about it and I respect that. He can't magic up the bond I have with them, and he entrusts their care to me rather than to himself"

I genuiney beleived that I was not as good a parent as DH in the baby days.. and I was probably right!, but if I'ld thrown my hands in the air and used that as an excuse to step back I wouldn't have found out that actually I'm at least as good as him when it comes to toddlers!

I'm am better at changing nappies, DH is less good at all nasty jobs cleaning up sick, stripping chickens.

It's not that I'm female it's that I'm a biologist, dissection and mashed up thinks in test tubes are fine by me.

He's hugely more patient than I am so I'll whiny DDs are his department.

anyway I'm less hormonal now then I was when I first had him so have more or less come to terms with the fact that I do not have to be the best most instantly natural parent out of the two of us to be a good mother, despite what statements like this imply.

"its not fair to say that the flip side to being a mother who feels it comes naturally is one that's horrid and "missed the maternal gene" - not fair at all! "

Cherie, I didn't mean it in that way at all. What I meant was that being maternal, nurturing or caring isn't necessarily genetically hard-wired because I have known a few mothers that disprove that theory.

And I certainly don't believe that a woman who is not a good mother is horrid - not at all!! The woman that I was thinking of as I typed the above person used to wake her DD up by yelling "waking up you f£&)g b#%^" at them. As you say, many mothers may feel that they are not instinctively maternal but bring themselves to learn it because they love their kids. The above woman was not one of them and it was horrible to witness.

Hope that's cleared up what I meant. Just my clunky writing I guess but had exhausting weekend ...

"And I certainly don't believe that a woman who is not a good mother is horrid - not at all!!"

but I'm not talking about women who are not good mothers
I am talking about women who ARE good mothers despite it not being instinct led and despite the father perhaps being better! the above seems to imply that you still think that not having NATURAL maternal instincts to start with = not being a good maternal mother, which is rubbish

Cherie you're like a bloody hawk!! , As soon as I posted that I thought: shit, I meant to write "instinctive mothers" not "good mothers", shall I correct it in follow up post but then I thought: no, Mess, that's a bit anal and you'd kinda clarified in next sentence. But I obviously should've cos that's what I meant.

Anyway, I'd never judge any mother just cos they weren't "naturally" maternal. In fact I try hard not to judge any mothers at all cos I know how hard it is.

I get "I don't know how you ladies do it" from my FIL. It's meant as a compliment, so I bite my tongue, but I actually think -

You know, I'm not magically more patient than you, just because I have a vagina. I didn't suddenly love shitty nappies when I grew boobs. Parenting these children is hard for me too, just as hard as it would be for you, and you are giving 50% of the population an "out" for all the grunt work of being a parent. I could easily say "I don't know how you do it, you're such a natural at cleaning the toilet", but that wouldn't mean that you suddenly found it easy or pleasurable. Because we're not talking about the lovely cuddles, or the playing Lego, or the "Mummy I love you" bits of parenting here. We're talking about the baby that screams 24/7 and the clinging toddler and the massive strops, aren't we?

Fortunately, DH is a bit more 21stC and it familiar nappies, tantrums and putting small reluctant children to bed.

Yeah mrsT, I do think it's a huge cop out. Also FIL implying that all women are naturals at it makes you feel bad if not. XH used to try this tactic with housework. He once even referenced a survey that he had found which claimed that 80% (or some such number) of women actually enjoyed housework!

Stupid survey was probably from one of the evil Pinker/Baron-Cohen twins. They sure do have a lot to answer for.

One thing I've noticed (and I'm prepared to be disagreed with) is I think women see their children as slightly more theirs, than the fathers.

But that could just be me.

what huan said

be careful what you wish for , it might just come true, and drive over your territory.

"I get "I don't know how you ladies do it" from my FIL. It's meant as a compliment, so I bite my tongue,"

I'd be so tempted to reply with "well nobody does till they give it a proper try!"

Most parents, male and female, don't see that they have any choice but to keep at it till they get it something close to "right", but where there are parents who don't keep trying and use the "but I'm just not as good at it" line are usually men - they can get away with it! nobody calls them unnatural or missing vital genes etc

I do also agree that there are women out there who claim to "own" their children more then father does (even if they are co-habiting) - its quite sad to watch actually as the ones I know have fathers who IME actually could be fab, maybe even better then these mums? But as soon as they try and do ANY little thing not the "mum's way" the mum thinks she's proven right - and I'm talking about TEENY things like the way the mum decides the child likes it's apples cut! Its not healthy. And of course it becomes a self fulfilling prophecy, the more the mum monopolises the child the less the father can learn and bond.. so eventually he is a bit useless, but only because he was MADE redundant!

Obviously you cannot both be "best" that's impossible! but it doesn't matter as long as you work as a unit

I think women see their children as slightly more theirs, than the fathers

Very true-I can't say how many times I have seen 'my child, my rules' on here and not once have I seen 'our child, our rules'.

the more the mum monopolises the child the less the father can learn and bond.. so eventually he is a bit useless, but only because he was MADE redundant!

And this starts at birth-the mother gets lots of time alone, but the father doesn't get any-she won't just go out and leave him to it, something she could do for a short time, even if bfeeding. If they are a unit she should be able to go without instructions-it is a bit late to expect him to be just as good when she finally decides to let go a bit.

"it is a bit late to expect him to be just as good when she finally decides to let go a bit"

true that! few months down the line there's a hissy fit about how she does everything and he just plays with them and how she wishes she had some of his freedom.. but it's short lived, so repeats itself.

You can definitely give the dad time and trust even if breastfeeding, once you get in a rhythm with feeding you know that if they're just fed they can go out for a walk without you while you kip on the sofa for X long. Really is no point complaining about never having had a break months later, by which point you've been erroding his confidence and undermining his importance for months! It is more about the mother's needs then the baby's, because actually if you BF the dad often IS better at settling because you smell of FOOD and awake time and they don't, they can be the non food sleepy cuddles smelling person! And if you're introducing bottles to mix feed for whatever reason, Kellymom suggests that at first the mum isn't even in the room because if they smell the real thing - they won't take the bottles! So the dad is the "best" person for this task, course he has to be trusted to be left alone for this...

crap paternity leave doesn't help either, and no equivalent to Maternity Allowance for those not on permanent contracts