"Women are naturally better parents" - Please help me articulate why this is sexist!

[MrsMangoBiscuit]

Mainly a lurker over here, but I'm starting this thread in the hopes you can help. Someone I work with (a nice someone, by no means a jerk!) came out with "Well I think women just make better parents. It's genetic, that's why women have looked after the children for thousands of years." He doesn't think that means that women shouldn't work. When quizzed, he takes the very reasonable view that each family should do what's best for them. He thinks that men who make natural parents are a tiny lucky minority and not the norm.

He means the "women make better/make natural parents" thing as a compliment. Thing is, it's not. It's sexist, and I'm really stuggling to put into concise words, why it is. Help!

I have tried arguing the point with him, but always seem to get stuck. I won't go into it all here or this post will be an essay, I just didn't want to drip feed.

amillionyears Saying women have a vagine isn't stereotyping, it's just a biological fact. Saying women are better parents is not a fact, it's an opinion, an assumption based on a very small section of data, that is then being applied to a whole group of people regardless of how true it is.

*vagina, with an a!

I also don't understand why I would issue instructions about his own DCs and his own house. I would for a babysitter who was strange to both.

DH said, when I was pregnant with DD, that he guessed I would be going part-time when she was born, because 'women have a stronger bond with their children'. I said, so, you're going to damage even further a compromised bond with this child by not spending much time with it? It did get him thinking - and I think that's where the problem is, when a generalisation like that is allowed to influence individual decisions. So your colleague is somewhat on the right track with his reasonable view about individual families! But the cliche leads far too easily to decisions that reinforce self-fulfilling prophecies.

I still work PT though ...

This is a really interesting thread. If I look at our experience (1 six month old baby) I would say it is sexist because it makes assumptions that all women are the same. Among the Mums I know who took on the majority of childcare in the 1st 6 months, there's a spectrum of approaches to parenting. If women were better parents then why are they doing things that other women find obhorrent/weird?
Also I think the kind of parenting associated with the term 'mothering' is seen as more natural and nurturing than that typically seen as provided by Dads. (look up what 'fathering' means). But at some stages a more hands-off style is important for kids to learn independence, which I find my partner is better at.

I say women are better parents is a biological fact.
Obviously not all women,but with two parents in any 1 family,women better than men 85% for instance.

MrsMangoBiscuit and others,where do you therefore stand on fathers rights.

The dictionary definition of stereotype is an opinion according to the Oxford dictionary among others.

Exotic, I agree with you. Yes, the woman carries the baby for 9 months but I really don't believe that automatically means that they are a better parents. (I also have a bit of an issue with people stressing how important it is that the mother carries the baby - its not as if the man had a choice to do it and turned it down, is it?) Yes, most women breast-feed and that means they end up spending more time with the baby, potentially bonding more in those early months, and are 'indispensable' to the baby as they are their food source. But again, I don't believe that naturally makes them better parents.

At the moment, as I am on maternity leave, I am arguable the 'better' parent as I spend all my time with the baby and so have learnt to understand her needs, her wants, her routine, what her cries mean etc. But I'm under no misconception that when I return to work f/t soon and her dad ends up doing more of her care than me, the tables will very probably turn - and then he may be the 'better' parent as he understands her more.

But looking at day one, DP and I were both novices and so neither of us naturally knew more than the other.

I also agree that there is often a sense on MN, on certain boards, that a woman is naturally a better parent and even a dad who is fully involved is 'less' of a parent. Just look at the various surname threads doing the rounds at the moment. There is a massive assumption on there that a baby should have the mother's surname (so it would only be the same as the dad's if the mum had the same surname as the dad) because carrying a baby for 9 months automatically makes mum far more of a parent than the dad ever is, or ever could be. Personally, for me that's the start of a slippery slope down to dad's being less capable, 'babysitting' the child etc.

amillionyears When you can show me the "good parent" gene, and prove that it is present in all women, and only women, then I will accept it is a biological fact. If you accept that even in your experience, it's only true in 85% of the time, then applying the same rule to that other 15% based on their gender, is sexist.

I don't stand anywhere on father's rights. However, my opinions on parents' rights are a different matter.

I think women are naturally more responsive to their babies when the hormones are still flying and still feeling so physically invested in their babies. Does this make them better parents or just quicker to act/more likely to take on the larger share of tasks?
It's the word 'naturally' that makes it sexist too. Maybe women know more about parenting because of conditioning which in the early days of a baby gives them an advantage but it's not knowledge we're born with.

I get annoyed when people say I'm lucky that we're taking turns working/being mainly responsible for childcare. And when Dads are praised for doing (not even) as much as Mums.

As a father this is an interesting read.

I think a lot of men and women do think women are naturally better at parenting than men.

The look of horror on the mother's I know when they found out that my children live mainly with me.

It is not socially acceptable for the fathers to be the main-carers in this country yet.

And women are made to feel guilty if they're not naturally maternal.

I think that women are naturally better parents because they are tuned into the baby, I knew mine before they were born in the way DH didn't and there is also the closeness of bfeeding. Men could nurture a baby just as well but, as seen on here, they don't get equal chance to be totally alone with the baby and get to know them.
The woman tends to be in charge and tends to be the one who decides when DP should be equal - if at all.

The roles of parents change over time as the child grows and develops. Each parent will bring their own personality to bear on the parenting task in hand. Gender doesn't make the contribution of one parent intrinsically "better" than that of the other.

In the very early days, I did have to help DH with getting to grips with the physical needs of the baby - just because I had put in more hours and was therefore more experienced. Just as I would have mentored a new junior colleague at work, I mentored him for a while. Once the baby was about 9 months old, however, we felt he was as capable as me.

What did drive me mad was the assumption that because I was female, I was somehow better at dealing with the grinding boredom of early babyhood. He was always very grateful that he didn't have to do the long boring days of feeding and changing and winding and crying, day in day out. He did his bit in the evenings and at weekends but those days were long and tedious. I remember asking him why on earth he thought that I enjoyed it when he didn't! He said that he chafed under the restrictiveness of naps and washing and the limited resilience of small babies. I asked what made him think that I didn't?! Being female makes me no more tolerant of all of that. I just did it because it was my job.

Now the DDs are 4 & 6, I'd say that we are equally capable parents. We place importance on different aspects of parenting - so I am more hung up on hygiene and nutrition that he is (which is not at all!). He is more inventive with risk and new activities. Together we make a good parenting team.

I do agree that some parents make a rod for their own backs by claiming some kind of parenting moral high ground and deeming the other parent incapable. Sadly this is often position taken by women but only because women are still more often in the position of full-time carer of small babies. However, this stems from a need to claim power and status rather than an intrinsic gender difference.

I know couple where the man is naturally good at parenting, Huan, and where the woman isn't in the least maternal - it is what suits the couple.

I agree with your last paragraph Duchess.

Child creation is the one area of life which is never going to be equal between men and women. And because society has traditionally put a low value on nurturing and childcare this makes it very difficult for those of us who otherwise live our lives and conduct our relationships in an equal, gender balanced way. Would you have been so offended if your colleague had said he thought women were more intelligent, or better at driving?

There are biological and hormonal reasons why women largely are more able to be better parents to very young babies. Breastfeeding obviously, but they are more in tune with the baby, will wake quicker in response to night crying etc. (have previously read about research that has proved this), simply because they have had a close relationship with that baby for 9 months already. However after a few weeks or months I suspect the parents personality becomes more of a deciding factor and both have the capacity to be the better, or the worse, parent.

It would be interesting to see if research has been carried out on a. adoptive parents and b. women who didn't realise they were pregnant until they gave birth, to see whether any gender differences to empathy, nurturing ability etc were evident.

I don't want to be a Good Parent. I want the opportunity to be a Bad Parent. Not in the sense of abusive beating neglectful parent, but I want to be the parent who can be vague about childcare arrangements, the parent who rustles up fish fingers abloodygain for tea without any visible veg, the parent who doesn't worry about telly watching. If I take on the role of Good Parent (which, oh yes, I do) it is tedious and wearing and involves organisation and vegetables and making children do their music practice. It involves work.

Which is another take on Why This Assumption Is A Sexist Pain In The Arse.

I hear you motherinferior!

Although sometimes when DH is being lazy about something I think "does it really matter?" and just go with his approach!

BedHog, you have mistakenly assumed I took offense. I like my colleague, and I think no less of him since having this discussion. (Probably the opposite as he was able to argue his point much more clearly than I was!) I think the opinion expressed is sexist. I think saying all women are smarter, or better drivers is equally sexist, although perhaps not so damaging as it doesn't enforce an already widely held gender stereotype. :)

Parenting, quite a lot of it, is really wearing. And boring. And takes up time that could pleasantly be spent doing something else. Being told 'oh you are so good at it' is just a way of being told 'ah, little lady, just get on with the shitwork (sometimes literally) because you have a natural talent for it'.

It's sexist because it's making a huge generalisation based on sex which is not based on evidence

yyyyyyy to Motherinferior.

For all that we are equally capable as parents, I almost NEVER get to be the vague parent.

I MUST make more of an effort to do this - I am getting better at it as the kids get older. But I do find it buttock-clenching to sit back and Let Standards Slip.

Which all goes to show that I am Mrs-Do-As-I-Say-Not-Do-As-I-Do with regards to the last paragraph of my previous post.

In my defense, I was a perfectionist No-Slipping-Of-Standards in my paid working life so its no surprise that I do the same in my unpaid role. Its the difference is hours that makes such an approach unsustainable.

Oh yes, I got the You Are So Good At The Tedious Stuff as well in previous jobs before going freelance (mostly from men. Oooh, I wonder why ?). Am currently on an in-house contract where I am developing my Vague and Disorganised tendencies with the stuff that doesn't fry my onion and it is a revelation.

By the age of 11 DD1, thank heavens, has taken on the role of organising her parents quite a lot of the time .

"There you are-as I said-you are saying that you are the 'naturally better parent' to a baby. You can't have it both ways."

Nope, I never said a "better" parent (which is ultimately meaningless, being entirely subjective), I said that I was (and am) the more important parent when our children are babies.

Of course I can have it "both" ways (if there were only two ways to have it).

It is perfectly consistent to believe that mothers are more important to small babies and also that men and women make equally good parents.

Good post, BedHog

Freelance

"But at some stages a more hands-off style is important for kids to learn independence, which I find my partner is better at."

Yy - DH lets, nay encourages, the bigger girls to do things that make me watch through my fingers.

My initial response will be "no, you're too small for that yet" only to be informed they do it all the time when he brings them out :o

So I've learnt to trust his faith in their abilities rather than my instinct to protect.

It feels very odd for me to be so cautious about safety, it's not my usual way. When it comes to the girls it feels almost like a physical compulsion.

Sort of like the physical pain/nausea I feel when one of them gets hurt.

Is that a learnt response or something innate?

To say that to you at work is IMO an insult, even if they don't consciously mean it to be.

If you're training for the long jump and another competitor says "women are naturally better at the high jump" that is a criticism, and this is the same. Your colleague has basically said, you are better at doing something other than what you and I are here to do solely because of your gender, not because of your skills or experience or personality. (Unless you see each other outside work a lot and your conversation was in the context of that relationship. And by that I don't mean if he said it in the pub after work drinks.)

It's a sexist remark because it treats you as an instance of your gender, not as an individual. It means you are just a female, and we're all the same, aren't we? Your gender is more important in something as important and complex as what sort of parent you are, than your personality, experience, upbringing, temperament....really? All women are the same, and super at wiping up sick, hence off you go girls and let the men get on with the interesting, fun, moneymaking stuff.

I work in a male-dominated industry and DP is a SAHD. I just came to the end of the busiest season which involved a lot of time away from home (various trips from 1 day to 3 days, but a lot of them over the last 10 weeks or so). If someone at WORK then said to me "well women are just better parents naturally" I don't think I'd be responsible for my actions.

But I wouldn't be having "women are x and men are y" sort of conversations anyway. Partly because when you don't fit into the stereotype all you ever end up saying is "not in my house", and partly because I don't think they ever end well. These conversations between colleagues are like discussing salaries - best not to go there.

That's really interesting AThingInYourLife
DP and I have the exact same conversation in reverse. So he is "don't do it darling you'll fall" and I am "she's got to learn, let her give it a go". I would say the protective response comes naturally to a primary carer, while the independence response comes naturally to the secondary carer who spends the bulk of their waking hours focused outside the home. It's not innate to being the one who was pregnant or who breastfed.