Can someone help me articulate why this is wrong?

[scentednappyhag]

This is my first time posting on this board, so forgive me if I don't phrase this well.

DH and I were having a discussion earlier about rape myths, and while he agrees with me that rape is ALWAYS the rapists fault, we disagreed on two points that have really been playing on my mind all day.

1- that lots of cases are women lying, and in court, the onus should be on the woman to prove she was raped, rather than the man to prove he did not rape.
And 2- that if a woman is in a pub/club and wearing a mini skirt and low cut too, saying 'she's well up for it' is not unacceptable as long as you don't rape her.

I couldn't quite get him to understand why I think these attitudes are wrong, I couldn't find the words to put it across. He now feels upset that i'm disappointed in his attitude as he doesn't understand what he's said wrong.

Can anyone help?

In the vast majority of rape cases the women are wearing jeans.

I was also told by a police person never to have a ponytail.

HullyGully - interesting. This fits with my personal theory about rape - that it is more about control/abasement over another human rather a sexual act. If the crime were a result of purely too many male sex hormones, then women dressed provocatively would be far and away at the top of the list.

I really hate it when women tell other women who ahve a valid issue with something, that there is not really an issue here.

There is.

The OP's DH has fallen short of the standards all of us have the right to expect from the men we love - the assumption that we as women are full human beings and shouldn't be shunted into the sex class for what we might be wearing one evening in a pub.

That's her issue. The DH's sub-conscious, unquestioned misogyny, which he is unaware of and unwilling to examine.

Also it is not reasonable to assume that a woman who is dressed sexily is "up for it". I have large breasts. Because of this, I often wear V neck tops, because otherwise I look like Ann Widdecombe. Lots of men would define my V shape tops as low cut and therefore sexy and therefore I'm up for it. I may not be, I may be just going about my everyday business while trying not to look like a majestic battleship coming into harbour.

I've filed your story away, too, blackcurrants. Cheers!

Also, to repeat a point made many times on this thread, THERE'S NOTHING WRONG WITH BEING UP FOR IT and showing that you are - male or female. Our species would die out pretty sharpish if we never signalled readiness for sex.

What's wrong is thinking it's okay for a man to grab what's on display, without consent.

I think we should take the OPs word for it that her DH is not a vile misogynist. After all many of our mothers or female friends occasionally come out with rape myths - it's wrong, it should be challenged and heaven forbid they sit on a rape jury, but it doesn't make them vile misogynists (unless they happen to be so anyway).

This is a slight tangent, but sort of fits on this thread.

There have been two recent incidents of male comics making "jokes" about rape and robustly defending their right to do so.

In this case, American comic Daniel Tosh was heckled for joking about rape and responded by saying it would be funny if five men raped the heckler. The woman's full story about what happened is here.

In his twitter "apology" he claimed he was misquoted and said the point he was making before being heckled was that there were awful things in the world but you can still make a joke about them .

In yesterday's Metro, British comic Richard Herring said that he responded to a female heckler with the comment, "You're the one woman in the world where a man would put Rohypnol in your drink and then leave you in the pub."

And sure enough, Herring has been defending his comeback on Twitter, saying the joke wasn't about rape, wasn't about the woman being ugly and bizarrely, name checking his feminist wife and having a feminist wife of course means you can't be sexist or a rape apologist.

Just wanted to flag this up as yet another way that rape culture is perpetuated.

Riiight. So Herring claims to be saying a man would put Rohypnol in a woman's drink, in a pub, because he doesn't like her talking? But that would be assault, right? So why didn't he say punch her in the mouth? Oh, because Rohypnol is a rape drug. But he wasn't talking about rape, right? So why did he say "then leave her in the pub"?

Does he mean a man would normally put Rohypnol in a woman's drink but take her home afterwards? What for, to listen to her talking (after she comes round)? That doesn't make sense ... Hmmm, Richard, it looks like you did make a rape joke after all.

I'm sure it would be hilarious if five men raped Daniel Tosh.

You're right, Kritiq, humour like this does perpetuate the idea that rape of women is acceptable - or, as Herring implied, desirable for an ugly or talkative woman! Comedians like them also joke about racism, gay-bashing, disabled abuse and elderly abuse, though, so I guess hatred is still funny for their audiences. Trying to say "I didn't mean it" afterwards is fairly despicable.

Interestingly enough, the point of Tosh's "joke" was that loud, pushy women deserve to be raped and the point of Herring's "joke" that men wouldn't even want to rape a woman who's loud and pushy.

The fact that neither man "gets" that this was the message in their jokes is pretty gobsmacking. It's also ironic that Richard Herring slated Ricky Gervais for his "joking" use of the term "mong," just last autumn.

When you're in a hole, stop digging and all that.

apart from anything else, jokes of that nature are simply not funny.

Am surprised by richard herring.

I thought he was more intelligent than that.

Another disappointing man.

I'm so glad most of you realise that DH is not a rapist sympathiser or misogynist- I didn't mean to make it sound as though he was.
It's more that it's scary how widely spread these beliefs are, and that most people don't even realise that they hold them.
There have been some really interesting and valuable comments so far, thank you.
I've been intimidated by these boards so far, but this thread has made me feel I should post/lurk here more as I'm learning some very important things, especially useful for trying to bring up DD in such a terrifying at times world.

Has anyone said the OP's DH is a vile misogynist? I missed that. I think they pointed out that the way he thinks is misogynist, that's not quite the same as being a vile misogynist.

Sorry scented, cross-post

I don't think you made him sound like a rape apologist btw, just a bog standard normal bloke who is a good egg on most things but has some deep-seated misogynist beliefs which he's not aware he's got and is not really up for examining and is slightly nettled by having it pointed out, which most of us are when the sub conscious beliefs we didn't know we had, which conflict with our conscious beliefs, are pointed out to us.

I can't watch any of those shows anymore. Willy waving bores looking smug

The misogynistic company I used to work for once booked a Boyle-type comedian for a conference dinner. "Nasty misogynistic comment after nasty misogynistic comment" plonked into shocked silence. After carrying on far too long, he eventually lost his rag, asking us if we were all a load of "politically correct poofs and frustrated lesbians"

Amazingly, this guy makes a good living.

On the upside it does give you some faith in progress that comedians do get picked up on rape/disablist "jokes" that just ten/twenty years ago would have been a complete non-story.

Blackcurrant.. I will be passing that on...superb!!!!!
I think the percentage of girls who turn out to be telling lies is enough and as has been previously mentioned it is lower than for many other crimes.
People are allowed to wear what they like without getting raped!! if a female was wearing a long skirt and long sleaved polo neck does it mean she isn't `up for it'? and what if she is gay? I would tell him his thoughts sounds like something from the dark ages (sadly too many still think this).

He's saying 'well up for it' as though that's a bad thing. There is nothing wrong with a woman actively seeking sex and new sexual partners. It still doesn't mean that a woman-hating predator is entitled in any way to fuck her when she's refused him.

I agree about the Richard Herring 'joke' - I was shocked to read that as I had a lot of respect for him after the Ricky Gervais incident. Herring's joke only works as a 'put down' if there's an implication that the woman should be offended that a man wouldn't want to rape her.

On one of Tim Minchin's DVDs which he makes a throwaway 'joke' about rape too - again, that's coming from someone who otherwise presents as being intelligent and socially aware.

All these lefty boys are intelligent, sensitive and socially aware, except when it comes to women's humanity.

Just when you think there's one that really thinks women are fully human, he goes and says something nobbish and then stands by his right to say something nobbish because free speech.

I haven't yet heard Stewart Lee say anything nobbish.

I think it's reasonable to think that a woman who is in a club, scantily clad, is looking for some company, and possibly interested in consensual sex with a partner of her choice. Just my opinion. This in no way equates to the woman asking for it. What men need to realise is that the length of a woman's skirt and the amount of cleavage on display is not necessarily a clear indicator of her willingness to have sex with him. Her telling him "no" is however a very reliable indicator and should be taken as gospel.

Why is it reasonable?

Clubs are hot and if you want to dance, you de-layer. Because dancing makes you hot, not because you're "looking for company".

Why is there an automatic assumption that people in clubs are looking for a, hook up?

I agree with sgb, there's nothing wrong with that, but the idea that is the only reason for anyone ever going out, is extraordinary