'Typical' boy / 'typical' girl theories

[Lottapianos]

I have a colleague who's driving me crackers right now. She has a son and we both work with young children (I have no DCs). She makes constant gendered comments about boys and girls, both her own son and the children we work with.

Example: 'I was surprised he was able to do that, I mean girls would be fine with it, but not boys' 'He (her son) eats like a horse - typical boy, girls eat like birds at that age' 'He's a boy, he doesn't understand that sort of thing (girl's feelings)'

At work, she talks about 'boys' toys' and 'girls' toys' and I have challenged her on this in a lighthearted way but it's just driving me mad! I am very anti-gender stereotyping and I don't understand why some people seem so very invested in it.

I guess I just want to do a bit of offloading but would be interested to hear other people's thoughts and/or similar experiences

Ditto kritiq, I never thought of it in those terms but I do mention things like strength/speed for DD and gentleness for DS. I find it a hard line to tread because while I don't want them to think they are only valued for their looks (eg) I do want them to be confident as that is something I am not.

DS pushes his little buggy everywhere (sometimes with a doll, sometimes with a train etc) and gets loads of adoring looks and lovely comments from passers by. Interestingly DD didn't when doing the same thing.

'I don't really think of my DCs in terms of their sex'

Quite right fuzzpig and neither should a health professional! I'm a health professional myself and I'm horrified by that comment, but sadly not surprised. I hope the comment didn't upset you.

I agree with you KRITIQ - facing up to sexism can indeed feel depressing and it's sad how far we still have to go. It's also daunting to speak about sexism because you can easily be labelled a 'feminazi' (whatever that means) or be accused of making a fuss. On the other hand, you can find like-minded folks like you lovely lot!

You are all making me feel a lot less mad lonely, thank you

By the way, some of you may know - what do nutters people mean when they say that boys are falling behind academically because education has become too 'feminised'? I smell BS already but can anyone shed more light? Thanks!

I think there's a whole range of things - partly that male teachers are (I think, although I don't have source data to hand) becoming as rare as hens' teeth in many primary schools so there's an early subtle reinforcement of the idea that education is "girl stuff"; partly that a focus on testing early rewards those members of a class who have better fine motor control and reading ability at KS1 and that those children are statistically more likely to be girls (whether because of innate gender difference or brcause they've been socialised into sitting quietly doing dainty stuff while boys climb trees and kick balls); partly that there are reduced opportunities for physical activity in schools (selling off of playing fields etc.); partly that paranoia about health & safety and litigation has produced some very restrictive policies about what can be done "hands on" by pupils; partly that the move to continuous assessment and, in some subjects, collaborative exercises, favours those who are generally conscientious / consistent and those who have well-developed social skills over other members of their cohort who have greater peaks and troughs or who work better alone. And probably some other stuff I've forgotten about.

It does seem at least possible that this means our education system is favouring pupils with one set of personality traits over pupils with another set of personality traits. And broadly speaking those correlate with stereotypical "girl" traits and stereotypical "boy" traits. And as we've discussed already, children do often get socialised into compliance with gender stereotypes, so the end result may be to disadvantage one gender more than another (although on the individual level a clever but scatty girl would be more disadvantaged than a quiet and conscientious boy).

So... umm... maybe? But labelling whatever the effect may be "feminisation" is just layering more social stereotypes on top of whatever problem there may be.

There's also a related idea with the gender gulf in primary teaching - that as most primary teachers are female and therefore (are relatively likely to have been socialised to) display stereotypically "female" behaviour patterns they may consciously or subconsciously identify stereotypically "male" behaviour patterns as naughty, negative, dusruptive etc. And that as boys will broadly tend to (have been socialised to) display stereotypically "male" behaviour patterns they are statistically more likely to find themselves attracting negative labels and get switched off the whole process. I don't know whether there's anything in that.

On an anecdotal level, DS is at a primary school that has a reputation locally for being "good with boys" - I think because they have a fair few male teachers, have longer-than-average playtimes, and while expecting consideration and good manners have a relatively relaxed attitude to scattiness, messiness and a certain amount of rough-and-tumble. As a result it also has more boys than girls because parents of boys on average seem to see that approach as more desirable than do parents of girls. And he's flourished there, more than he might perhaps have done in some other schools with a different emphasis. But then DD1 will be starting in September, because I think it'll suit her too (although for slightly different reasons) so I don't personally see it as a "boy friendly" school so much as a school with a particular philosophy that I like and think suits my children. I think the idea with "feminisation" of education is that there are relatively few schools like that and so in the way that it is "boy friendly" schools in general are relatively "boy unfriendly"? I can think of a few parents who have sent elder daughters to other local schools but then sent younger sons to DS's school (but none who've done it the other way round) so they presumably think there's something in it or, at least, something that wouldn't suit their sons at their daughters' (very good) schools? To what extent they're right and to what extent, if they are, it's gender-based I don't know.

i think the 'feminisation' of primary school is a combination of the lack of male teachers these days, the increased value placed on communication skills and public speaking and the downplaying or complete removal of competitive sport and competition of any sort.
these things together favour particular types of children, many of whom are girls.

i'm not sure that any of these except for the lack of male teachers is necessarily a bad thing.

I like the idea of "reverse praise," - telling a boy child he's well-presented and beautiful and praising the achievements of a girl child. It probably feels a bit forced, but it just sounds so alien to the way our ears have been "trained."

Hey, but there are increasing levels of boys and young men experiencing eating disorders and feeling bad about their body image, so while the pressure to be the ideal "type" is cumulatively greater on girls, boys don't escape it either. So, I think with either sex, I'd tend to praise their appearance based on things they've chosen (e.g. "I love the colour of your shoes/pattern of your shirt, etc.) rather than things that they can't control as such (e.g. "Your eyes are the prettiest colour of blue," or similar.)

I think Casey's and Maybe's points about the blethering on about girls having higher scores on tests and schools becoming too "feminised" are pretty well on the money.

But, even if girls generally get higher marks in school, that doesn't automatically translate into getting higher paying jobs, being more represented in public life, being safe from male violence or any of the other things that are important longer term in life. Does anyone really remember who got what marks back in school? Did they all turn out to be the most successful people?

It is so good to read this thread and know there are like-minded people out there! I am 22 wks pg with my first child and my family and friends all think I'm crazy - boys are boys etc... I told my sister the sonographer said the baby was being naughty because it wouldn't keep still when she was trying to take measurements and DS said, oh it must be a boy then. Yeah, not even born and it's being stereotyped.

We found out the sex but won't tell anyone, accidentally slipped to my friend which was really annoying as she is one of the worst for this - she has twins G&B and constantly refers to how typical of their sex they are... Grr.

Anyway thanks for giving me the opportunity to sound off... Must be because I'm a girl or something.

A lot of people have a huge amount invested in maintaining gender roles. A friend's husband for example who likes to see himself as very alpha male - doesn't see dirt, can't possibly handle a crying child - is always commenting 'that's my boy' or 'typical boy' with a laugh when his son does something he shouldn't or refuses to do jobs at home. It's like he wants to create a little boys club where he and his son giggle at the girls who try to make them clear up after themselves or do anything domestic.

And my friend who I am very fond of internalises all this stuff so sees her son's refusal to do very much to help around the house as a sign he is strong willed and rebellious, 'just like his dad' when in fact he has been taught from birth that it's the job of women to nag about housework and the job of men to ignore them. Her daughter who is in fact a very strong willed and determined girl is given no opportunity to refuse to do domestic tasks.

Funnily enough I think they would both say that they have brought their children up the same etc and that their children are just naturally different because their whole marriage is based on the idea that he can't help not doing housework because he just doesn't see it, or forgets or gets distracted rather than he just can't be arsed.

Thanks a lot to those of you who wrote your thoughts about 'feminisation' of education - it all makes perfect sense. I agree that the word 'feminisation' is unhelpful. I can see why certain types of teaching may alienate certain children and that male and female teachers probably bring their own baggage in terms of gendered behaviour to the classroom.

A question about male teachers - I have often heard people talk about how the lack of male teachers puts boys in particular at a disadvantage, as they perform better with a male role model in the classroom. I'm a very big advocate of getting more men into Early Years and later education as I think a gender balance in the work force is good for everyone and it benefits children to see both men and women in caring roles. However, is there any reason why an enthusiastic, motivated, engaging female teacher could not also be seen as a positive authority figure and 'role model' for both male and female students? Or do children identify so strongly with their own gender, even at the age of 3 (nursery age), that only a man is likely to be taken seriously by boys?

'But, even if girls generally get higher marks in school, that doesn't automatically translate into getting higher paying jobs, being more represented in public life, being safe from male violence or any of the other things that are important longer term in life'

I agree with you KRITIQ although of course school results are important in terms of opening doors to further training and opportunities. Also, if boys are having negative experiences at school, it could have implications for their future learning as well as abilities to accept authority and work in a team with others. I remember on another thread, someone said that years ago, when girls were falling behind boys in maths and science results, it was put down to boys having a more natural aptitude for those subjects. Now that girls are overtaking boys in all subjects, people are in a flap about 'failing' boys. So weren't we failing girls all those years?

All my boys had a pink buggy (which they pushed their trains around in!!) and my 9 yr old DS has a pink bedroom ...

delusions of gender talks about this type of stereotyping. it says objectivity declines as belief that the sexes having inherent strengths and weaknesses increases.

there was a study of the maths skills of women and men:

• the women who believed men were good at maths under estimated their own mathematical abilities.
• the men who believed men were good at maths over estimated their own mathematical abilities
• the people who did not think sex determined your mathematical abilties were more accurate about their own abilties.

if this is your view of the world, you are going to see the behaviour you are looking for in (your) DCs, because that is your model of reason as to why someone is good or bad at something.

I don't understand why some people seem so very invested in it. because its easier than taking responsibilty for all your strengths and weaknesses. you can just explain it by being born female or male.

this is going on with the young children you work with. it needs properly dealing with. Maybe the topic of staff stereotyping girls and boys can be dealt with for all staff as i doubt she is the only person doing this.

Can I get some advice? I have a 5mo ds and am very keen to avoid exactly these sorts of stereotypes. He's only just starting to express preferences for things and currently he loves a piece of plastic tat that's gender neutral, a wooden spoon and a cuddly monkey. Most of his toys are gender neutral except for thr thomas stuff his dad keeps getting because he likes it!

He wears very 'boy' typical clothes because we got given them all second hand, but I bought him a pink polo shirt (because I like pink and he looks great in it) and when I do start having to buy clothes I want to avoid the ' little monster' and digger type things.

What more can I do to not stereo type and to encourage positive attributes? The trouble is that his dad and I are very ' gender typical' and baby cakes is going to see us living out those attributes... Luckily dh is very hand on with house work and child care, but I worry that i'm a bit 1950s housewife in my tastes (baking, sewing, knitting etc etc)

Oh I dunno, maybe i'm tying myself up in knots over nothing, but I want to do a good job at this.

Op, your colleague sounds a prat and I wouldn't want someone like that involved in raising my child.

Lottapianos, I don't think it makes a difference. My DS goes to a primary school which is known for having a high % of male teachers. He doesn't seem to do any better or worse in their classes and his favourite teacher has always been the woman teacher who was so kind to him when he was having a rough time. Although I do think it's a positive thing to have more male teachers at primary level just because it's good to have a mix, for the teachers as well as the kids.

"I don't understand why some people seem so very invested in it. because its easier than taking responsibilty for all your strengths and weaknesses. you can just explain it by being born female or male."

What I truly don't understand is the practice of exceptionalism: when someone does not conform to the expected gender stereotype they will be written off as an exception. My DF truly believes that boys are more logical than girls but then calls my ability in maths "an exception".

People who diss women's tennis then go on to say that Serena Williams is "really a man", as if it somehow backs up their theory. I mean, she's not like a man, she's like a woman, because she is a woman.

I just don't get it.

MakesCakes, good for you for planning ahead and trying to avoid falling into the gender stereotype trap! Just the fact that you're aware of it will mean that you're less likely to do it. I would suggest that as he gets older you encourage him to play with a range of toys - trains, puzzles, dolls, toy kitchen, all sorts of things - either by buying a range of toys for him at home, or going to Children's Centre groups where they will have a lot of different toys. He will figure out for himself what he likes and doesn't like. Also be aware of the sort of feedback you give him - it's very easy to unconsciously encourage children to do things that we think they 'should' be doing.

5 months is a gorgeous age - enjoy him!

Oh, and I would recommend a book called 'There's a Good Girl' - it was written by a German woman who had a daughter, she kept a diary of her child's first 3 years and noted incidents where gender stereotypes were reinforced (unconsciously) either by her or other adults around her. She was amazed how natural it felt, even for her as a feminist who was aware of the dangers of gender stereotyping! I think it would also be really useful to read as the parent of a boy.

Lotta - it is a gorgeous age, isn't it? I'm lucky in some ways that when we come to my parents' he plays with all the toys my sister and I had, but the only potentially gendered one i've come across so far is a purple dustbuster :-)

He likes to watch me knit though, and i'm going to teach him how...if I can ever persuade him to take a break from his relentless pursuit of forward motion...

Will look out for that book, it sounds interesting

Onehand, I think you're doing great, and it kills me that your MIL would say that! I am only 16 weeks, but I'm already planning on cross-coloring my child! I don't want people to put here/him into a box just yet! If we have a girl, she's going to have access to any toys she likes, a good mix of trains and trucks and dolls and animals. It really bugs me that girls can't have trucks (I loved playing with trucks as a child!) and boys can't be nurturing and caring.

My hat's off to you! I'll remember what you've done and try to give my kidlet a balanced start too!

'MiL asked me when we were going to start trying for another baby since I so obviously wish I had a boy'

Doesn't it just make you want to scream?! It sounds like you are doing a fab job OneHand. I'm never sure whether it's best to ignore comments like your MIL's or to try to explain your position and maybe bring some more people round to your way of thinking.

By the way, anyone notice the latest pile of crap gender stereotyping in the media? Shock horror - a big strapping lad like Andy Murray had the nerve to cry after losing the biggest match of his life! What a big 'girl' (and just when did that become an insult by the way?) He's obviously not 'man' enough

Hi, on the subject of male teachers at primary level, one of my criteria when looking at schools for my DS was at least one male teacher in the school. In fact at his school it is the headmaster, and he was amazed that there was a 'boy teacher' when he met him on his first or second day. Yes, boys (and presumably girls) do look for role models early on. At age 3 DS1 was saying: 'boys don't speak French, only girls speak French' as his dad does not speak French and so he was only hearing it from me and my mum. (She's French, I'm half-French). We started getting my dad to speak French to him as well so he had 'proof' that boys do speak French.

From other thread started by basil:

boy crisis contains some excellent points about the lack of male teachers at primary.

Very interesting thread with excellent points made. I've got a DD and am currently expecting DS. My mind is already focused on trying to avoid gender stereotyping for DD and I aim to continue this with DS.

But it is amazing how very culturally conditioned we all are to apply gender stereotyping to people/children, even when aware of it. I often have to "squelch" certain comments etc. before I make them, they are so ingrained.

When it comes to commenting on a child's appearance (and I agree, too much focus on appearance, whether for a boy or girl, is unhelpful in any case) I stick to describing clothing etc. as "smart" or "that suits you". I get twitchy if people tell DD her hair/clothes/shoes whatever are "pretty". I try and remind myself to use language I would (and do) also use when talking to/about a boy. I wish other people would do the same.

Today on fb (details changed):

Friend (& mum of twins): oh god DD is crawling top speed and grabbing all the cool stuff-a bum shufflin DS is not happy!
17 people like this.
Friend's DH: DS had better get off his bum, get his act together and catch on fast then :)
Friend of Friend: How funny that the girlie is taking an early lead... (no comment re spending too much time on your bum little man). PS DS1 was on his bum until 18 months (DD walked by 12). DS2 still likes being on his bum (oops did I say that out loud?)x
Friday at 11:16 · Like
Friend: i think being on bums is a boy thing too!!! DD wont even let me feed her at 7 months!!! DS is quite happy for mummy to do everything, and so it begins!!!

This made me sad.