'Typical' boy / 'typical' girl theories

[Lottapianos]

I have a colleague who's driving me crackers right now. She has a son and we both work with young children (I have no DCs). She makes constant gendered comments about boys and girls, both her own son and the children we work with.

Example: 'I was surprised he was able to do that, I mean girls would be fine with it, but not boys' 'He (her son) eats like a horse - typical boy, girls eat like birds at that age' 'He's a boy, he doesn't understand that sort of thing (girl's feelings)'

At work, she talks about 'boys' toys' and 'girls' toys' and I have challenged her on this in a lighthearted way but it's just driving me mad! I am very anti-gender stereotyping and I don't understand why some people seem so very invested in it.

I guess I just want to do a bit of offloading but would be interested to hear other people's thoughts and/or similar experiences

My son is 28 months & I'm always saying he's 'such a boy' because without any prompting from us he loves Thomas & Friends, cars, planes etc, all what I would call 'typical boy stuff'.
But I would not have a problem if he wanted to play with dolls etc, it's just at the moment he doesn't.

I would find it annoying and, if I came across it in a setting, unprofessional.

Whilst I would agree there are some differences (at a population level), for example, girls' fine motor skills tend to develop earlier, this is no predictor for individual children (especially as there is a huge overlap).

And even those documented tendencies in whole populations are no excuse whatsoever for expressing opinions on what are girls/boys toys. I would expect a setting to have a range of toys, and have both time for child-led choices and also encouraging the children to try out others.

What you report she said about appetite strikes me as just silly.

I guess my problem with it MrsHelsBels74 is that it never stops with toys - people tend to extend it to personal characteristics, social skills, listening skills, communicating skills etc e.g. 'doesn't listen, typical boy, 'so caring, typical girl'. I think it involves putting children into boxes based on their biological sex which I feel is unfair. I know you say 'without any prompting' he enjoys playing with Thomas, cars etc but the truth is that children get bombarded with gendered toys from birth - not just from their parents, but from anyone who loves them and is likely to give gifts. I would guess that he's been given way more train/car type toys than doll/creative type toys. This influence does have an effect and we know that expectations are the greatest predictor of outcomes for children. There is no 'typical man' or 'typical woman' so why should there be 'typical' boys and girls?

You (collectively) try for a world where boys and girls can express their personalities and follow their talents and interests irrespective of the genitals they possess, then silly women like the OP's colleague come along determined to kick everyone back into the 19th century.

This make she so

me, not she,

So cross I can't even type now...

When I say without prompting I guess I mean if we've gone to a playgroup or nursery he immediately gravitates towards the trains, cars, when there are all sorts of things available. He's watched all kinds of things on Cbeebies but always asks for Captain Pugwash, Fireman Sam or Thomas & Friends.

Although when he went to a taster session at nursery the first thing he picked up was a purple sequinned shoe...I've never been so proud (I love purple, sparkly things & shoes!)

But he can do/play with/watch whatever he wants, he's now very vocal about what he wants & there's no convincing him otherwise....if he enjoys it what's the problem?

The other day I was chatting to a fellow mum who told me in front of her little DD she wished she'd had a DS cos girls were so difficult. But then she does make comments about boys being rubbish at housework which annoys my DS no end cos I've trained him to balk at gender stereotypes.

'if he enjoys it what's the problem?'

No problem at all - I'm not suggesting you take his trains away and start forcing dolls on him! I have no problem with little boys enjoying trains and cars, but I do have a problem with people putting a child's preferences down to being a boy or a girl. My point is that children like different things, but what they like has nothing to do with being a boy or a girl - it's down to their past experiences and what they like as individuals, as well as some innate stuff like whether they are most stimulated by auditory or visual input for example.

And I agree that purple sparkly shoes are fab!

grimbletart, this person's son is going on his first 'date' this weekend - he's not even a teenager yet but whatever. She's chuffed because the girl he's going with is 'a right tomboy' but also likes 'girly things like eyeshadow'. Her DS had arranged that this girl would come round and meet him at his house, then they would go to the cinema together - she has told him that's not 'right' because the boy is 'supposed' to pick the girl up if you're going out. I honestly had to check the calendar to make sure I hadnt woken up in 1950. The whole thing just twists my melon

I find this so infuriating. The problem is, it does spill out in all sorts of ways. In school my dd was very slow to write despite good reading, poor concentration, wriggly, all the 'typical boy' things, and I really suspect that had she been a boy she would have been put down as a slower developer & put in the group doing writing in sand, work on fine motor control etc.

Instead it seemed like there was a view that as a girl she 'should be more mature', 'she could do it if she tried' etc etc. So it really isn't just harmless - even apart from the effect on girls and boys perception of themselves.

More positively, when I get this I try to do things like commenting on a family I know that are all boys, and how different they are (to the extent that if no.2 had been a girl, I'm sure everyone would have seen 'her' as a perfect example of gender differences!).

Daughter No 2 behaves very differently to Daughter No1. They're great friends, but have completely different personalities. I've no doubt that if No2 was a boy, these difference would be put down to gender, rather than to the fact that they're just two different people.

Also keep getting annoyed with a relative who keeps saying that she'd love a third child, but only if she could have another son, because her daughter is so difficult, and she couldn't cope with two girls.

'Also keep getting annoyed with a relative who keeps saying that she'd love a third child, but only if she could have another son, because her daughter is so difficult, and she couldn't cope with two girls'

I hear versions of this all. the. time. Mind you, I have seen lots of talk on other threads about 'typical man' behaviour i.e. doesn't tidy up, doesn't remember things etc. It doesn't just stop at childhood. It's so problematic because what happens to people who fall outside what is 'typical' for their gender? It's divisive and exclusive.

By the way, I am so glad to hear it's not just me who resists gender stereotyping. I work in Early Years and it's disturbing and depressing how many of my colleagues peddle the 'boys do this', 'girls do that' rubbish. I started a similar thread about another colleague who tells professionals she trains that 'we all want to support women's lib and everything, but boys and girls really are different'. She's a very smart person with loads of experience but I just die a little when I hear her say this!

I think unless we are very very careful, we end up socialising kids into this.

Today at my school, teachers were giving out certificates. One teacher said for every single girl that she was "lovely" and "beautiful" and every single boy was "hard-working" and "funny".

Now I know and you know that she was just saying whatever to be nice to the kids, but they absorb that message.

Even though I'm very concious of how I act with regards to this, it's often on the tip of my tongue to tell one of the girls that I like her hair today or whatever. I never do, but it's hard sometimes, as it just feels natural to say those things.

There are shedloads of studies showing where people are given a baby or toddler dressed as the "wrong" gender, they will interact with them, offer them toys and use words to describe them that relate to the gender they think they are rather than their actual sex.

Even where adults insist that they are "gender blind" in their child rearing, sometimes we aren't even aware of the cues and messages we are giving, and even the youngest children are absorbing. Then of course there are the influences of other family, friends, neighbours, practitioners involved in their care, images from tv, strangers in the bus queue, etc. It's impossible to shield a child from all these influences that seem to put girls into a pink pigeon hole and boys into a blue one.

If this person is a professional colleague, I think I'd have a serious word with them about how their attitudes and gender stereotyping could be having a negative impact on outcomes for children in her care, even where that's not her intention. You could suggest reading material like Cordelia Fine's "Delusions of Gender" or Lise Eliot's "Pink Brain Blue Brain," to give the context for your concerns. You could suggest that she might benefit from further support and training related to equalities.

It's a tricky one because many people have invested alot in the ideas of innate differences in behaviour between boys and girls. They can sometimes use this belief as an "excuse" for why they themselves are good at/like somethings and aren't good at/like/don't try other things. When you've been marginalised, patronised or otherwise excluded because you are a girl or woman, sometimes you can feel a bit better about this if you convince yourself it's just "nature," rather than deliberate injustice.

So, it's not surprising that suggesting alternative understandings can be met with considerable resistance.

The issue here though is that this person is responsible for the care of children and her beliefs and behaviour could be having a negative impact on them.

Snap yellowraincoats - complimenting a girl on her appearance feels natural because we've been conditioned to believe that is how we should regard girls, and what we should be praising them for. The idea has been so normalised that we often don't recognise that it's rooted in the societal belief that females have less intrinsic worth than males.

'When you've been marginalised, patronised or otherwise excluded because you are a girl or woman, sometimes you can feel a bit better about this if you convince yourself it's just "nature," rather than deliberate injustice'

That's v interesting KRITIQ, I hadn't thought of it in this way before.

I agree with you about my colleague - she's actually senior to me so I'm reluctant to suggest she has training needs herself! We do sometimes chat about books we've read so I may drop Cordelia Fine into the conversation next time. It's interesting that this colleague has a teenage son - I've never met him but he sounds like a spoiled brat who never lifts a single finger around the house and speaks to her horribly a lot of the time. He seems to treat her like a slave. But I guess as he's a boy he just can't be expected to helpful and civil at home, can he?

I do find myself complimenting girls on their shoes/hair/whatever - I've tried to balance it out by also complimenting boys on their cool trainers etc but actually, it would probably be better not to refer to appearance at all, other than in a factual way ('yes, Jamie has green eyes') if another child comments on how someone looks.

I agree with trying not to compliment kids on their clothes and appearance. It's far too easy to fall into the trap of saying "cool t-shirt" to the boys and "pretty dress" to the girls.

This seems to be a good spot to re-link this Lisa Bloom blog post on talking to girls from last year.

That's a lovely article CaseyShraeger. It's so hard to get yourself out of that sort of mindset - little girls = talking about shoes - but it can be done. I like how she said she 'squelched herself' when it was on the tip of her tongue to talk about how cute Maya was . I'll remember that!

Oh yes, that Lisa Bloom article was really good. It's definitely worth a read and perhaps something worth showing to your colleague Lotta.

With regard to "feeling better" if we can tell ourselves something isn't down to discrimination was something that actually came out of a couple conversations I have had with staff I've managed who've described experiences of what I could see was clearly racial discrimination in work. Contrary to the "popular belief" that people will shout "discrimination" at the drop of a hat, I found they wanted to believe almost any other reason for why they were passed over for promotion, talked to in a patronising way, excluded from things, etc., but genuinely didn't want to conclude it was down to racism. If it were something else, maybe they could do something to change it (e.g. more training, better time management, etc.) but if it was discrimination, it can seem almost too hopeless to deal with.

I think there is something similar here with regard to sexism - if you can convince yourself that discrimination happened for some reason other than your sex or that there was a "logical" reason why something happened, it feels a bit less hopeless. You feel a bit less helpless.

I think that's why you get so many arguments that draw on dodgyscience or selected history to assert that the status quo is valid and nothing needs to change. It gives "comfort" both to the privileged, so they won't have to lose their privilege, and provides a sop for those who are marginalised, so they can avoid acknowledging (painfully) the injustice they are subject to.

I'm always saying to DD how gorgeous she is - but I do the same with my DS (because they are, obviously, both completely stunning :o). It is automatic and I do kick myself because I don't want them to think looks are über important (as they actually aren't, DH and I are total scruffbags). I tell them they're kind, clever, snuggly, trying really hard, a good brother/sister/friend etc, so it's not all about appearance.

I agree about the 'typical' thing, it is very annoying. We are a fairly neutral house but since DD started school she has become quite pink/princessy, something I just can't relate to at all. She does play a lot with boys though. She is only just 5 and already shows some 'inner conflict' over her behaviour - I know she plays more with cars/dinosaurs etc at home than she would at school and there have even been tears over it :(

DS recently had a developmental assessment with a paediatrician and she said afterwards that he's very boyish - not in terms of behaviour (he came in pushing his buggy for a start :)) but his abilities - his communication is very poor but he was 'advanced' at spatial type tasks. I was a bit as he's only 2 and I guess I just see DS rather than 'a boy' IYSWIM. I don't really think of my DCs in terms of their sex.

"Snap yellowraincoats - complimenting a girl on her appearance feels natural because we've been conditioned to believe that is how we should regard girls, and what we should be praising them for."

I really try and make a point of making gender inappropriate comments where I can ('what a big strong girl she is', 'look how lovely he is with the little ones') - my feeling is that the more people fight back against stereotyping both by challenging it and in whatever more subtle ways they can, the better.

I agree Kritiq. Facing up to the fact that your life has been limited by sexism is quite a depressing thing especially as it often feels that there is little to be done about it because of the general apathy that exists.

in a professional setting i think you should have a gender policy and i'd suggest inviting in an interesting speaker on gender in early years to talk to all the staff.
if you were my childcare providers and i had an inkling of your colleague's attitudes i'd take my child out of that situation.