Motherhood - I need some analytical help please

[glasgowwean]

Firstly I?d like to add a disclaimer that I really, really don?t want to start a bunfight and secondly, this is an issue that I?m trying to work my way through and am genuinely struggling with feeling disturbed by some of my own views and the feeling that I?m breaking a taboo in even considering this.

Basically I was having a discussion with some female friends about the concept of motherhood and there was sorrow expressed about a mutual friend who had, for whatever reason, decided to remain childfree. There was also an argument about my use of the term ?childfree? instead of ?childless?. The main thrust of the conversation was that, it was natural to have children (agree) but that unless you have children ? you never really experience what being a woman was all about?

This was then followed up by discussion about how women were the more natural of parents and that of course, it was right that women cared more about their babies then men did and that this was entirely natural and not a social constraint placed on woman by society?s expectations.
It struck a chord with me as I remember as a teenager reading The Female Eunuch and being surprised, a little repulsed, and yet convinced by a chapter in there regarding babies or children.

It was the first time that I had come across the view that women perhaps ?overdid? the whole mother thing and that the premise for this was to give themselves value in a society that otherwise didn?t place any value on them.

I think I see this in everyday life with women feeling that it?s unacceptable not to be wholly consumed with their children, that they are somehow lesser women, lesser humans, if they do not buy into the whole idea that womanhood equals motherhood. It seems that this expectation that every woman should be a ?natural? mother and have mystical instincts puts pressure on women and forces us all to pretend that we enjoy every aspect of it and are can only be fulfilled by having a child. Any other attempts at fulfilment are compensatory in some way and women who express dissatisfaction with motherhood are somehow lesser.

It also seems, in my view, to diminish the role of men and absolve them of responsibility for childrearing to a large extent. Men are treated as incapable, not paternal, and lacking in parental instinct. Which of course, sounds sympathetic to men, but really, is this a way of the patriarchy neatly removing men from the ?minor? issue of childrearing and justifying leaving the burden to fall on women ?

I?m not attacking women for being mothers and finding it a wholly worthy occupation but do we overstate the needs of children and understate the abilities of men to carve out a meaningful niche in society or does the patriarchy do this to diminish women and fool them into thinking it?s the natural order ?

I don?t know where I?m going with this, if anywhere, but would welcome other comments to help me clarify my own thoughts.

I think it's six of one and half a dozen of the other. I love my DD (am a SAHM) but sometimes I struggle a bit with letting DH parent. I usually succeed in my struggles, that is, I let him parent and what do you know? He has got parental instincts and isn't just the fun dad. But I'm lucky there in that he is willing and able. For some men it is a get out clause.

But I think my struggling is as a result of wanting to carve out that niche. I think in our society we idealise motherhood but we don't value it at all which leads to the forcing us to pretend we enjoy it all. What I especially dislike is a recurring trope in various forms of entertainment where the mother is very sensible and intelligent but no fun at all.

That's not very clear either, but those are my thoughts.

Oh, and a book rec: What Mothers Do by Naomi Stadlen

Honestly, the relative weight (time and energy) you place on money earning/childrearing/housekeeping/your relationship with your partner/every other of life's activities is up to you and your nearest and dearest. Don't overthink it.

Ooh interesting questions OP. I hate motherhood but through some weird instinct I feel irrationally attached to the idea that motherhood is natural whilst parenthood a modern invention of patriarchy, with the nuclear family being the vehicle of oppression. For the record I don't have PND mine are 11 and 7 now. When I say irrational I mean that there lies within some us this deep contradiction, to be a mother is emotionally all consuming and we are for good evolutionary reasons naturally the better parents but is motherhood the only way we can reach our full potential, no.

I know many feminists would argue that for women to have fulfilling careers it is necessary to have supportive fathers for their children. Where does that leave single mothers? What does it tell us about the disadvantages they face? I think the single most obvious difference is usually economic.

You are right, OP.

Motherhood is commonly represented as being instinctive or "natural" which (a) suggests that men aren't as good at looking after babies/children and so makes it seem proper that most of it is left to women and (b) suggests that it is easy which means that the gargantuan challenge of coming to terms with having a small human dependent on you isn't acknowledged properly.

People tell me I am a natural mother - I am not! I am an intelligent person who has learned the many skills needed to parent children as well as I can and it was and is bloody hard work.

I agree with Bonsoir. I'm not sure whether I, my friendship group and colleagues are unusual in this, but I find almost all the women I encounter are quite prepared to admit that there are aspects of parenting that they don't enjoy, and I never see any of them attempting to be a 'perfect', 'natural' mother. They are also all, generally, quite willing to give their partners space to parent in their own way; in the case of DH and I, he was in many ways the more natural parent of DD when she was a baby. I gladly fulfilled my part as her mother, but for the first few weeks it was definitely more about duty than love and I was quite prepared to admit that, even at the time. DH, on the other hand, loved her on sight.

Agree with you, OP, that in many ways the 'matriarchy' diminishes men in respect to parenting, just as much as the patriatchy can diminish women. It's up to us all as individuals to carve our own parenting path with integrity and honesty and accept that we all have different feelings and needs in respect to how we live our family lives.

As for childfree versus childless, I see one as a decision and one a lack, but in neither cases is the woman less of a woman, as far as I'm concerned. I do see that the shared experience of women with children can make them seem or behave as if they are part of a 'club', though, and I know that causes problems for some of my friends who have no children, whether this is from choice or not.

I am often struck at how many people talk about how the women they know are not honest about their experiences of motherhood, which in all honestly has been the absolute opposite of my experience, thankfully.

Sorry, bit long!

It is no more "natural" imo for women to become mothers, than men to become fathers. Yes some have to, but not all need to to continue the species.

Yes I think women will want to carve out a niche in areas of their life where they feel they have some power and sense of satisfaction. And for some this will be children and/or the home. This is understandable, but yes it does reinforce the mother as the main care giver. And I think it is a result of the patriarchy as it is a result of so many women not having other areas of their life where they feel a sense of power and satisfaction.

Hence the side lining of fathers sometimes. This is not to blame mothers, there is satisfaction in bringing up children and making it your domain is a natural reaction in that sense.

I am always struck as well by how women who really struggle after having a baby are often told they have PND caused by a chemical imbalance. i have spoken to women who have been told this who have said I don't have PND, I just regret having my baby, I didn't realise it would be like this. But it was as if no or few people could accept this as it was "unnatural" to feel this way - so she must have something wrong with her.

People are people.
Loads of men great, patient, hands-on types never happier than when covered in babies.
Loads of women having a dreadful time raising children (especially little ones).

Depends on the person.
Incidentally amongst the people I know, the ideas in your op are not universally held. Some people hold up the natural mothers, men CBA idea, some don't. Prob partly depending on what the roles are in their relationships as well.

SQ - where does that leave feminist analysis then which the OP said she specifically wanted?

OK will report my comment.

Sorry SQ I wasn't saying you should go that far! Just saying that it wasn't really answering the OP's question.

I think women, as mother's make natural parents, we are responsible for carrying the baby, we give birth and feed the baby. Thankfully most of us in the UK ( only most ) we have, although struggle to hold onto, reproductive rights. There are, I think uncomfortable realities to be faced as we move forwards because when you elevate men to the same status and confer similar rights, we place men in opposition to our right to maintain our reproductive rights. I'm certain other's won't agree but it is something I ponder a lot and I have formed the opinion that taking the position that fathers make as good/as natural parents as mothers means that if men have the same evolutionary capacity to care for children then within my life time this could be used to try and take away our rights to abortion and contraception.

as mothers not mother's what is wrong with me, I only cut my nails and not only can I not type, I can't think straight!

Mini - I can see where you are coming from and I can see taht argument being used to try and take women's rightsaway. But there is a diference between the mother's body and the child. Contraception and abortion are about the mother's body.

I really love this argument which runs along the line of 'because x is natural, it's right to do it'. So much of parenting advice stems from this as does a lot of morality.

We are a product of our evolutionary history, but we have the luxury of living in a society with choices available.

Plus, I personally believe that men have a great, and often poorly tapped (perhaps because of socially conditioning?) caring/maternal side. I think I read this first in the 'continuum concept' (though I thought a lot of that was bunkum btw) and it rang really true.

Abortion is about many more things than just the mother's body. I am pro choice but it is more complex than saying one's rights trumps another's.

do we overstate the needs of children
No, if anything children's needs are understated in general. The fashion is for personal freedom and "taming" the child so you can get on with your own life.
Perhaps as a way of coping of industrial society with working parents, no extended family, no support etc

understate the abilities of men to carve out a meaningful niche in society
Men's abilities vis a vis child rearing are not valued enough, and there is an imbalance in child-rearing between man/woman.

does the patriarchy do this to diminish women and fool them into thinking it?s the natural order ?
Maybe, probably consciously way back when, and subconsciously now.

Thanks for the responses.

I think what I'm trying to work out is how much the patriarchy (in whatever sense you understand that to mean) plays in our assessment of women as mothers.

It suits the current partriachial system for women to think they are the natural parent. Has the patriarchy evolved around that because women ARE the more natural parent or has it determined that women are the more natural parent because that suits the needs of the system ?

FWIW, I'm not commenting on whether woman or man is the more natural parent, just the current system which seems to assume in favour of the woman.

And I think that where I am going with this is to try and determine how this then impacts on how we change or adapt to this to level the playing field to ensure equality i.e. do we make child rearing economically attractive to both men and women, does ascribing value to it make it more attractive to men or does it raise women to a better level if men see the value of childrearing............still working on this in my head

Are you in the UK OP? Here in the UK I really don't see people seeing that they should be perfect mothers and all-consumed by it.

Aye, in the UK.

And it's not about being perfect. Or attacking women in any sense although I appreciate that it could be construed that way. Hence posting in FWR than on the general boards.

It's about motherhood itself past the very early baby stages. Why does it fall to women and do women cling on to it as 'their area' because it's the only place they feel they can or are they forced to assume that position and we simply don't question this.

I know I'm not being clear so thanks for the patience.

Actually maybe I should stop using the term motherhood and use childrearing instead

Has the patriarchy picked up what is a natural phenomena and decided to run with it thus continuing that idea? Interesting dialectic.

Women are naturally mothers only because mothers are naturally always women. Biology dictates that we are mothers which is why the birth of the patriarchy seems to have came about because only women could do reproductive labour. A division of labour (fair at the time) was for men to be engaged in other forms of labour. It is evolutionary and historical because it is rooted in survival and procreation of the species.

What is problematic I think is the value we attach to motherhood once we have clear division of labour. Liberal feminism speaks of childcare and enacting laws that further women's rights in paid employment but seems to overlook the fact that this further devalues domestic labour and mothering.

Hi OP, thanks for asking this, as it's something I have been struggling a lot with over the last few months for some reason (children past the baby stage, and my status as 'mum' just starting to sink in....particularly as I've had to give up my 'career' as it wasn't compatible with family life - which has caused a lot of soul-searching....)

I think about this constantly. I think I know what you are asking/trying to say. I don't know what the answer is though.

There's a very interesting article in the Atlantic this month that some of you may be interested in - www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2012/07/why-women-still-can-8217-t-have-it-all/9020/

Asks a lot of the same questions (and doesn't manage to answer many/most of them but a good discussion)

I struggle particularly with this as I was raised by a 'feminist' mother who worked full time and put a high priority on her career. Frankly, I'm not sure it was the best thing for us. So I often find myself overcompensating with my own DC's and am not sure that's doing them many favours either....

Am rambling. But grateful for the discussion.

Clearly, if a baby is to be bf, only the mother CAN do it.

I have frequently felt people judged me for not wanting children (I actively DIDN'T but changed heart at 33 years!). Why, I wonder? I guess it is a society level imperative to ensure the next generation are being produced. I live in France and there is a lot of national pride that the birth rate is one of the highest in the EU and I see it day-to-day how people expect couples to have children as soon as they marry etc. I see this as a society-driven characteristic.

In rl men do as much as women.We are not in a career type area though so men are out and about on their own with babies and young children all the time. I think its different in posh areas where the man works in a job he is away all the time and the woman stays at home.Those men dont seem very hands on but I totally disagree with men not being paternal as here loads of men want children really young and look after them.

That's encouraging molly. I live in rural france which is exceptionally old-fashioned. It is also a very poor region. Men, young and old alike, NEVER go in the kitchen, never do household chores and do NONE of the childrearing. I find this very difficult to come to terms with (understatement). I have fallen into this local pattern a bit as it's DH's work that took off, not mine. Good lil housewife me!

'I am always struck as well by how women who really struggle after having a baby are often told they have PND caused by a chemical imbalance. i have spoken to women who have been told this who have said I don't have PND, I just regret having my baby, I didn't realise it would be like this'

That's really interesting EatsBrains - I'd never thought of that before. There is still a massive cultural expectation that all women, even those who are unsure about motherhood before it happens, will fall totally in love with their baby and it will become the most wonderful experience of their entire lives. That has always sounded like utter tosh to me. I don't doubt that there are men and women who bitterly regret having children but I hadn't thought about it in the context of PND before.

OP, I'm childfree and I have heard all the rubbish your friends were spouting many times. I have been called 'selfish', told that I would definitely regret my decision, that I was bound to 'change my mind'. I've even had someone wish an unwanted pregnancy on me. I have no idea why my choice winds some people up so very much - I suspect some of it is to do with this mad theory that every woman wants children and being a mother is a fundamental part of being a 'whole woman'. But I have wondered why some people are so insecure about their own choice to become a parent that they feel threatened by my choice not to be one.

And it's totally different for men - they don't get anything like the same pressure to be a parent. And for the record, with the very obvious exceptions of giving birth and breastfeeding, I don't believe that there is a single thing that mothers can do better than fathers, just because they are women. Fathers can parent just as fully as mothers - it just takes hard work and an open mind and a willingness to learn - just like it does for mothers!