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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Feminism: chat

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Original poster

at what age does 'no' really start to mean no? primary school 'dilemma'...

53 replies

bejeezus · 24/06/2012 18:32

was having a chat today with dd1 (7 year old) today about this and that. earlier in the day, another mum had asked her if she had a boyfriend and she had become all embarrassed and not answered. she said, she wanted to tell me now, about her boyfriend situation ( )..

she said this boy in her class had tried to kiss her hand whilst she wasnt looking; and when she had realised what he was doing she had pulled her hand away really quickly. I told her that boys should only be kissing her if she wanted them too. I said you kiss with someone, it isnt something you do TO someone and both people must be willing. She said that she had been 'terrified' when it happened!. So i went on to say that if she didnt like what someone was doing to her then she should ask them to stop....and if they didnt stop, she should......thump them in the face. And tell me, obviously

so i am sure you can read between the lines and see that i was in my head, having this conversation with her 15 year old self about something more than kissing........

i know they are only 7 yo and it is all innocent and non-sexual, and that being 'terrified' by being kissed on the hand is a complete 7yo over reaction. and that thumping a 7 yo admirer in the nose would be considered by most, an over reaction also (particularly probably the parents of said admirer)

but i cant start giving her messages such as 'oh hes only playing' 'its just a kiss' 'boys do that' etc etc...its the start of the insidious rot isnt it???

she likes the boy and is friends with him btw...they play together

its a bit of a feminist aibu?

OP posts:

FallenCaryatid · 25/06/2012 07:56

We've always taught it in school from first entry, and I did it at home from my children being very small. It's more about giving the child the confidence to say no about anything that is bothering them, hugging, rough play or wanting them to do something they don't really want to, and a clear signal to the other child that whatever is happening isn't OK.
The next step is that they involve an adult, if the other child ignores the 'no', rather than punching them, or feeling distressed.
It's never brushed off by teachers or other staff as 'only playing' It's about respecting the other person.

FallenCaryatid · 25/06/2012 07:57

Oh, and I never made my two hug or kiss relatives if they didn't want to either, they were expected to be polite and friendly.

Rubirosa · 25/06/2012 08:02

Can affectionate children not learn to ask "can I give you a hug/kiss?". I work with children and as adults we always model asking first.

megandraper · 25/06/2012 08:03

I tell my two boys (4 and 2) when they're -wrestling on the floor-- that if one of them doesn't like it, the other must stop immediately. And I enforce it.

I also tell them that if the other one (or someone else) is doing something to them they don't like, then to tell them clearly to stop, and if they don't, move away.

I will do the same with DD when she's old enough (she's 12 mths).

I think the specifics of the advice change according to age, but I think it's appropriate right from the beginning to make clear that all physical contact should be consensual.

I also ask them if I can give them a kiss, and don't if they're not in the mood for it (they usually are).

Original poster

bejeezus · 25/06/2012 09:31

I do hope my punch-in-the-nose advice has settled into dds subconscious, should she ever find herself in a situation when she is older

but, yes I think edith I shall teach her the 'I said no and I MEAN IT' approach

OP posts:

mistlethrush · 25/06/2012 09:43

We've had a problem with a girl in ds's class pestering the boys by trying to kiss them and blowing them kisses which they've found extremely annoying (this is in class time). In Yr1 I was very cross because DS and his friend both lost their golden time by pushing her away and yet she got off without punishment - I think that the teacher thought it was harmless. However, this year, new teacher, its been taken seriously and has been stopped. Indeed, she has had her golden time taken away on one occasion for overstepping the acceptable in this sort of situation.

I've not had to say anything to get DS to moderate his affection - whilst in R he bestowed kisses on lots of people he's very much more restrained now and certainly asks his female friends if he can kiss them goodbye (and gives them a peck on the cheek if they are happy).

BertieBotts · 25/06/2012 09:47

Honestly I started it at about 2 because I don't want DS to ever think he has the right to carry on doing something to someone if they aren't fully enjoying it. I instruct other children in this too sometimes it goes down well with the parents, sometimes not!

It doesn't seem to be working though - he's 3.8 now and while he'll ask someone if they want a hug/kiss before he kisses them, if he's playing/wrestling with us or jumping on the bed etc he just doesn't respond to being asked to stop something. We're very clear and use a different tone of voice to the "Oh no please don't eat me!" etc games he plays with toys.

For those of you who have older children who are respectful of people's wishes in this way was there an age they picked it up or am I doing something wrong?

UptoapointLordCopper · 25/06/2012 09:55

I've always told my DSs that if someone says no in your games you stop. I wish somebody would tell some of the children in DS1's class though - from what he said some of the girls play catch-him-and-sit-on-him games, and the TAs never pay any attention to his complaints. But he says he'll deal with it himself... I did tell off one the girls' grandmother though for encouraging violent behaviour in the child. I don't discriminate when it comes to telling off people.

Original poster

bejeezus · 25/06/2012 10:06

bertie I reckon as long as you keep at it, the message will get through eventually?? I dont know that you can actually do anything??

mistlethrush that is exactly my concern re the teachers reaction; I can see that the 'pusher-awayer' is going to get punished more, over the 'kisser' or the 'hugger'

Do you think this is more important for girls? to assert themselves i mean? because it is them that will be in danger if they havent learnt this. Boys, not so much...

OP posts:

BertieBotts · 25/06/2012 10:32

No, it's important for both.

On an immediate level girls need to learn it's okay to say no, and boys need to learn to respect that no.

On an indirect level boys need to learn that people (including them) have the right to say no, and girls need to know that there are people (boys) around who WILL respect a no and that it isn't inevitable their "no" will be ignored.

UptoapointLordCopper · 25/06/2012 10:41

Surely boys also must be able to say no, as well as be able to respect other people's no.

Chandon · 25/06/2012 10:41

I only have experience with my boys being kissed BY girls (very much the girls' idea!), they are 7 and 9.

They were a bit bemused, then embarrassed.

I have told them the can say "no", and also to respect another person's "no"

it is a good age to start mentioning it.

I guess as a mother of boys, it is my job to make sure they would never touch/kiss a girl without her definitely being o.k. with this.

Reminds me of my first BF, who asked me nervously: "I would really like to kiss you, is that o.k.?" which disappointed me as in ALL films boys just lean in and go for it

UptoapointLordCopper · 25/06/2012 10:42

x-post.

As a mother of boys too I would like them to respect other people's no. But I would also like them to be able to say no.

Chandon · 25/06/2012 10:43

bertie, he is just still very young :)

UptoapointLordCopper · 25/06/2012 10:43

In fact let's take boys and girls out of this. Everyone should be able to say no and respect other people's no.

(Slightly worried about whether no should be "no". Says my inner punctuation pedant.)

SDTGisAnEvilWolefGenius · 25/06/2012 11:13

There does seem to be a slight implication that it is boys who need to learn that 'no' means 'no' (hedging my bets on the punctuation, UptoapointLordCopper), and it is only girls who are going to be on the receiving end of unwanted kisses/attention. As Uptoapoint says, take gender out of it - everyone should learn that no-one has the right to do something to them that they don't like, that they have the right to say 'No' forcefully and push the person off, and that they should respect it when someone else says 'No'.

Original poster

bejeezus · 25/06/2012 11:24

i dont mean to suggest that boys should have to tolerate the unwanted advances of girls-of course they should also learn that they can say 'no'

Just thinking--that if this lesson is not bolstered in childhood, then it is far more dangerous girls in adulthood

OP posts:

mistlethrush · 25/06/2012 12:12

I do think that gender is given far too much importance early on - for instance, same teachers, at the beginning of year one, told me (rather shocked) that DS had to be told not to roll around on the ground with his friend. I am pretty certain that his friends parents were not told that their daughter had been rolling around with my son - and it was just as likely to have been instigated by her than him (in fact more so at that time as she is 6 months older than him which is a lot when you're only 5).

Original poster

bejeezus · 25/06/2012 12:16

i agree that gender is not important wrt this, when they are children

but, it doesnt mean that it wont have more impact on them when they become adults; gender will matter then...therefore it kind of has to matter when they are children???

OP posts:

Original poster

bejeezus · 25/06/2012 12:17

mistlethrush
although
-why do you think the girls parents were not similarily advised?
-why are they getting told, not to roll around

OP posts:

Original poster

bejeezus · 25/06/2012 12:19

but...its not going to matter in any formalised way is it? that would be wrong 'girls should definitely say no, boys not so much'....

maybe, parents of girls need to be more 'on it' though??

OP posts:

crazygracieuk · 25/06/2012 12:27

No means no!

My 5 year old son has had a girl repeatedly try to kiss him and being dc3 and having an older brother who is starting to become interested in girls, he is of the opinion that kissing a girl who's not family is totally yuck. You should see his reaction when a movie has kissing!

When dc2 was 6, her teacher had to give a "no kissing in the playground" lecture to the whole class as children were kissing in the playground.

Isn't the "no unwanted physical contact lesson" taught at nursery? There always seem to be one or two kids in a nursery aged children's group who is always too physically affectionate for other children who has to be taught to ask or is that just my circle?

mistlethrush · 26/06/2012 21:01

Bejeesus I'm sure it was because they were effectively hugging / wrestling each other on the ground and I should think DS was on top at least half the time and if they'd been 8 years older you might have thought that things were getting somewhat heated. So DS was told off because it was clearly him on top some of the time and 'inappropriate' whilst her parents were not told because she was a girl and therefore there's nothing that she could have been doing wrong. At least that's how I read it. Quite how a 5 year old could get judged like that I don't know.

solidgoldbrass · 26/06/2012 21:14

I do think there is a possibility of making it too gendered, when some kids just are more physically affectionate than others - I am working on getting my DS to leave other kids alone and understand that not everyone likes cuddles and not all the time, but I really don't think he's an infant misogynistic male oppressor: he's just as kissy with boys, if not more so.

mistlethrush · 26/06/2012 22:10

Yes, completely - ds still hugs this same girl now, nearly 2 years later. And she hugs him back. And at the end of a playdate, they exchanged pecks on the cheek, having mutually agreed that. And yet, somehow, DS's affection and friendly wrestling with her when he was 5 was taken to be some sort of unwanted advance with sexual connotations which required me to be pulled aside and 'informed' about.

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