Porn

[garlicbum]

Giving this another punt, since we seem to be doing civilised controversy quite well atm :)

I used to be fairly cool about porn, though never much of a fan. Now I feel:-
? Too much bullying & exploitation is used in its making
? It promotes too many rape-like fantasies
? Sexual objectification spills over into real life
? Porn gives boys and girls weird expectations of sexual relationships.
I'm sure there's more; just typing off the top of my head.

However, I am persuaded that sexual representation in the arts is not always porn. I've seen it said the Victorians invented porn - and think I agree. It was the Victorians who simultaneously labelled sexuality "dirty" and went looking for it in secret. Women and men have always enjoyed sexy art; it wasn't porn because it wasn't considered shameful.

I believe there is still a healthy stream of sexy art, but have a hard time separating it from porn. I've no idea how one would remove the Victorians' legacy of smuttiness from our appreciation of human sexuality. Dammit.

As a feminist, what do you feel about porn? How have your ideas on it changed?

Aw thanks Eats I completely agree that a lot of people who are not anti-porn do not actually understand what porn looks like these days.

It did break my heart. I really cannot convey how disturbing so much of it was, and not just because I'm anti-porn but because I'm a human being. The amount of aggressive degradation of women was really astounding.The number of women who were clearly in pain doing things that have become more mainstream and they feel they have to do, the number of women being violated in front of a whole room of people, the number of women who can barely stand up and are clearly having sex with people they barely know, I mean it's just crazy. It did make me a little crazy for a while. I won't even mention the sickest stuff I saw.

I would be very worried if my partner was aroused by the stuff I saw -- which was all on the mainstream sites, the ones everyone looks at.

Oh, god, dreaming :(
Thanks for doing this work. I'm sorry it's necessary.

Minx, do people find Lucian Freud's work pornographic? I don't see it

Basil, AnyF, Eatsbrains and Garlic - It did change my opinion of dh, I felt as though I didn't know him any more. It bothered me greatly because of how the woman was obviously suffering, but also because he just didn't see that. He genuinely didn't get that it was really happening, I could see the confusion on his face.... it was surreal and I just don't understand it.

This is a man who has never regularly watched porn, not at all in the last 8 or 9 years (to my knowledge), never buys porn or lads mags and who has been to a strip club once with work and vowed never, ever to set foot in one again.

Maybe his reaction to it was influenced by the expectations that men watch and enjoy porn, that the women 'consent' therefore must enjoy it (even if they look like they don't), that no-one would really would upload a video of a woman really being hurt so she must have been acting. Or maybe he really is a sick fucker. I should really ask him.

I don't envy you this, itsthequietones. But if I was you I would have to talk to my DP about this. There are just too many unanswered questions there.

Katie - I can't idly watch any kind of exploitation, that includes JK, porn, X Factor, etc, etc.

It makes me angry and uncomfortable.

It makes me question myself, my motives for being a voyeur, etc. and the honest answer is invariably selfish. I do not want to be that person.

I totally agree. I started to get really uncomfortable watching X Factor a couple of years ago. For me it was becoming aware of the lengths gone to in order to utterly humiliate the contestants. Seeing people, who just didn't realise what was happening, being used and degraded for entertainment. It's so cruel, and it seems to be a common theme.

We don't have a tv now.

I dunno, I'm just fascinated by what makes an uncoordinated person with no sense of rhythm decide they're the best dancer in the world. How did they get that way? When they compare themselves with good dancers, what do they see? I do laugh sometimes, though I'm not gloating or anything. I don't like the judges being unduly horrible, but never watch the final rounds, so spare myself that.

I think I would have liked the 'cruelty porn' action novel if the author had painted the characters with more depth - it was really only the 'good man' and the 'bad man' who seemed like real people.

itsthequietones, you do seem to be describing cognitive dissonance - conflict between a set of beliefs and observed facts. In your position, I think I'd find it nearly impossible to discuss this without projecting my hopes of finding that on to him. But, whether you can manage detachment or not, you'll probably feel better for talking about it. If you do: am wishing you luck :)

itsthequietones

I am not talking about your H specifically now, but...

my personal opinion of anybody that watches porn is one of 2 scenarios...

1. they are uneducated about trafficking, abuse and coercion within the industry. They buy into the myth that women are "empowered" and can become rich from allowing their bodies to be used on film, and hey, why shouldn't they ?

2. they are fully aware of those things, and don't care anyway . Their orgasm is more important than the chance that what they are using to get off may be filmed sexual abuse

FWIW, I believe that about both male and female users of porn, but we know that most of it is aimed at men and uses the objectification of women as it's basis.

There is a solution to scenario (1). Educate yourself. Use your brain instead of your genitals to think with. Many people who now object to porn have done this, and IMO, become a better person.

Scenario (2) ? Well, need I say more ?

I agree AnyFucker. I never thought porn empowered. But before I knew about it, I did kind of think, well what is the harm with it if it is not the extreme kind. But finding out just a little bit about porn, totally changed my mind.

Yes -- I used to be okay with porn, in a much different context. I came of age in the early 90s, in the US, when porn was a really hot issue for the Christian right... and as well, a lot of porn-bashing was also thinly disguised gay-bashing. So to say porn was okay was a way of defending sexual freedom from conservatives (which is a much bigger issue in the US, where sexual issues are more legislated).

Porn was not quite as crazy back then, this was pre-internet, also before the huge rush of sex trafficking later in the decade, still a lot of professionals making it. Not to say it was 'good' but it was nothing like what you see now.

Then tbh I didn't really think about porn for a long time. None of my partners were into it, it wasn't an issue for me.

It's when I started doing research in this area again that I was really astounded at how much things have changed, and really turned against it.

itsthequietones, I would speak to him, perhaps it is a case that some men (only some) really can not read body language, nuances in facial expression and read emotional cues and therefore they do not see the pain, or distress. Others I think probably do read subtle cues and actually get a kick out of watching women suffer. Seems like your DH is probably the former but without asking him you'll always be wondering.

Is Frueds work pornographic? Yes I think some of it is and not for the most obvious reasons. The painting of the women "Benefits Supervisor Sleeping" is eerie, like all of his paintings he uses a 100 watt light bulb, like holding a mirror up to someone, he paints them in all of their vulnerability, we see something that is disturbing and something that in no way celebrates her naked form, the dirt under the finger nails, the stretch marks and fat, she is sleeping and it seems that we are looking at her without her knowledge, like an inanimate object to be studied and it is voyeuristic. It is as though she at her most vulnerable is an object of both fascination and repulsion. Another example is "Evening in the Studio" where I believe he is mocking the naked women.

I don't believe all of his work is pornographic and I actually admire his painting. I just feel, the intend behind some of the later pieces is spite, repulsion and mocking rather then a celebration or appreciation.

I've had a chat with dh. I just reminded him about it and asked why he thought it was funny. He blurted out that if someone wants to be paid to stick large objects up their arses and then be suprised when it hurts then he would find that funny. Must have seen the look on my face as he quickly added 'it would be funny if it was a bloke having it done to him too, it's not just because it's a woman'. He also said that seeing someone in pain didn't turn him on at all. Apparently there was a scene at the end where the two women turn on the man and try to grab his (rather sensitive at that point) penis, he thought that was funny too.

He has a very black and white view of consent - if you've said yes and have been paid then you do it. If you change your mind during it then you just stop.

He's definitely 1) on your list AnyF, he has no idea. I think he's watched way too much Jackass too.

I used to fall into the first category. Porn really didn't bother me up until this incident, I never questioned it. Reading the realities of it has really turned me against it though.

Oh, well done!

I think he's watched way too much Jackass - You know what, this is a really big point. TV shows featuring people who are self-loathing / foolish / misguided enough to submit to painful humiliation make me very uncomfortable. I'm not massively bothered about the individuals involved in the show, it's the message that disturbs me. When audiences are invited to laugh at someone else's pain, many of them will and each time they do, they move closer to dehumanising those individuals and turning others' pain to entertainment in their real lives. So with porn.

wasn't there someone from JackAss who died as a result of his extreme juvenile sense of humour ?

I agree with garlic, and I hate JackAss type stuff for just that reason

mindless idiots being hurt for other mindless idiot's entertainment

itsthequietones I have no idea if your H is a bad man, but he sounds immature and a little bit cold to me

there does come a point, IMO, when being "uneducated" is no longer a valid excuse

it's a very individual line to draw though

I think that as soon as you look at someone as an object, then you dehumanise them. The fact that viewing porn does that is the root of the problem.

As soon as you start to look at another person, without engaging with their humanity, then you cease to be in any kind of a human relationship. It's how slave owners viewed slaves etc.

All the other stuff about money and coercion is built on the lack of humanity

I agree with anyfucker. Fine when people don't understand what porn means and what is the normal for porn. But there does come a stage when it is wilful ignorance. But of course each situation would have to be judged individually

To anyone who honestly believes porn is harmless I will share a post I made some while back about the effect of porn on mine and my husbands lives.

I will share a little of our history as an illustration of where it can lead.

DH was a heavy porn user a few years ago and we had some serious intimacy issues. He had became so desensitised by looking at porn that he was virtually unable to have a normal sexual relationship. It took some serious couples counselling to pull us through that period. I sat down with DH one afternoon and went through exactly what I didn't like about his addiction. We looked at the lives of the performers and the risks they faced. We also looked honestly at the impact it had already had on our lives and our relationship.
DH decided that porn was not worth losing what we had over and sought professional help to deal with his side of the issue.
What we both learned is that the porn had replaced healthy lust and sex with a warped substitute that killed the intimacy we had. I don't totally blame DH as I had always been fine with his porn viewing (as I had been with my ex's). But we learned the hard way what it can do to a loving relationship.

DH no longer views porn as harmless, and no longer watches it as in his own words to a friends teenage son "it messes with what you think is right and normal and almost stopped me functioning as a normal bloke in the bedroom"

Jackass is awful. I don't understand how that is entertainment

I haven't really watched much porn at all other than what my ex used to insist on me watching with him which was more of the "Here is a giant penis with no other part of the man visible and a plastic looking woman doing things to it in an uninterested manner" variety, but I have seen one of the videos mentioned where items are inserted into various places - I was staying with my cousin and her boyfriend said "This is funny, look!" - it wasn't at all and both her and me were quite distressed by it, both the way it's apparently entertaining/sexy/(I don't even know what the intended audience of this video was ) to watch someone's insides literally be turned inside out and before that, the way they were moving her around as though she had no free will, as though she was dead. It was easy to forget for a second that she wasn't actually a person because the whole scenario, shooting angle, lack of interaction etc wholly suggested that she wasn't one.

:(

Well I've watched a lot of porn and been involved in the making of a fair bit of it, too. I worked with and around consenting adults and we generally had a lot of fun and treated each other with kindness and courtesy: certainly when I was directing stuff I made damn sure that my cast were happy to be there, properly paid, properly looked after etc. I am in favour of 'fair trade' porn and would like there to be a more active movement towards this eg makers of porn featuring real live performers to trumpet the fact that the performers are not only willing but well-treated during the making of the porn.

I would rather work towards fair trade food, fair trade clothes and all other commodities. The porn is not really in the same league as all other life sustaining commodities.

Mini: No one's stopping you working for those things. Other people prefer to work for animal rights organisations/funds for drug rehab/preservation of ancient buildings or whatever. We each pick our own important causes.

I think the idea of fair trade porn is interesting. It just feels like a drop in the bucket though. It's not going to reduce the amount of nasty porn out there, or mitigate against people getting addicted to it.

It is interesting. Would you have to throw loads of money at it, putting movies out for free on YouPorn or whatever it's called? Or could 'fair trade porn' makers get some of the chain distributors interested, so as to build interest the way fairtrade coffee producers did?

SGB - Not convinced there can be such a thing as ethical porn.